River raise to eliminate overcalls OK?

[akvsaq]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

River: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Can you please advise me on my play here? Thanks.

[Nick C]

I don't know. It kind of seems like if MP2 or CO had an ace, they would have bet it when checked to on the turn. Then again, I guess maybe they wouldn't if the hand were, say, A7, or they feared a checkraise from BB.

I guess maybe they both have straight draws? They both called two cold on the flop, but then neither bet when checked to when the flush card hit.

For his part, BB most likely either whiffed on a turn checkraise or got scared by both your flop raise and the turn card, which is pretty scary. But then maybe after the turn got checked through he decided his QQ was good after all. Or he's worried the river will also check through and he'll get nothing more out of his AA.

I suppose he could be taking a stab, into three opponents who don't seem interested anymore, with K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or something, which he auto-bet on the flop and checked on the turn after picking up a draw. I kind of think he has you beat, though, and if he does, I doubt he'll fold.

It seems quite possible, to me, that MP2 and CO both missed. Or maybe one of them has sixes up or something, which won't beat you anyway, or trip fives, which you won't be able to get rid of. I guess I'm saying I think you quite possibly want their overcalls here, though getting rid of a weak ace if you happen to have BB beat sure would be nice, if it's possible.

Maybe the place to be aggressive is on the turn. If no one has an ace, then this could be a spot to drive out overcards to your pair. (Possibly BB would even release a clubless TT or something.)

That said, at the point when the action gets to you on the turn, a flush for MP2 or CO is certainly something to worry about. If you bet and one of them raised, I think it might be time to fold your (fairly weak) flush draw, though I'd consider calling if it was heads-up when the action got back to me.

[akvsaq]

Thanks Nick for your detailed analysis. It was great! In retrospect, I think I should have folded the river. I didn't want to bet the turn in this case because there was such a big chance of being behind. When nobody bet, I took a stab at the pot on river but I don't like it.

[aK13]

If the river was a /images/graemlins/club.gif I might like it a little better, but even then, it's pushing it.

[akvsaq]

ak13, I don't like the raise if the /images/graemlins/club.gif came. Anybody w/ a higher /images/graemlins/club.gif WILL call in this loose-passive game. I checked the turn thinking 2 people overcalled my raise and the flush card and the Ace came out and thought I'm done. However, nobody bet! Which led me to believe I might still be good. I don't know... If the PF raiser was TA I like the river raise. hmmmm... I hope more people discuss this line. Thanks guys for your input.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
ak13, I don't like the raise if the /images/graemlins/club.gif came. Anybody w/ a higher /images/graemlins/club.gif WILL call in this loose-passive game. I checked the turn thinking 2 people overcalled my raise and the flush card and the Ace came out and thought I'm done. However, nobody bet! Which led me to believe I might still be good. I don't know... If the PF raiser was TA I like the river raise. hmmmm... I hope more people discuss this line. Thanks guys for your input.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might fold out a J or T a reasonable amount of time to make it profitable against some tighter, more thinking opponents. But I agree, I'm just saying I think this is the wrong time to apply this concept. In fact, I don't believe I've ever used it before.

Oh yeah, if BB led a 4 flush board into 4 players, he's probably got a club you can't beat, so the play probably wouldn't be appropriate there either.

[Webster]

I would have bet the turn. That way maybe you can see if there is an ace and you don't give up the lead. Also a bet on the turn would back down BB so he would NOT bet. If he had an Ace he MIGHT try to check raise you on the river. If he checks I would check also.

A bet on the turn is almost like trying for a free card on the river.

Just my humble and flawed thoughts!

[akvsaq]

Yeah, I think I should have bit my tongue hard and fire on the turn. This is my normal play. I just didn't like the 2 cold-callers. Now that I think about it I'm now changing my mind to checking again on the turn. LOL arghhh.. tough decision. If it wasn't for the 2 dold callers, Id easily (still biting my tongue) bet. I just thought theres a good chance of 1 of them being on a flush draw. I'm not sure about my river raise though. The way he played it I thought I had a chance of having him beat so I can't fold. It's just that I wanted the other players to fold better than 99.