Standard?

[sthief09]

I forgot hot to play in multiway pots.

live 10/20 game

JBB raises UTG, he's cold called in 2 spots, then sfer semicoldcalls in the SB and I call in the BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gif


The flop comes J/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif or something like that

sfer checks, I contemplate leading, but I check, a way too loose but solidly aggressive, decent postflop guy raises him, second cold caller calls too, sfer calls, and I'm stuck calling. JBB calls behind me which is cool.

Turn (5 ways, 10 BB): T/images/graemlins/heart.gif

sfer checks, I bet...

k?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I contemplate leading, but I check,

[/ QUOTE ]

What made you check?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I contemplate leading, but I check,

[/ QUOTE ]

What made you check?

[/ QUOTE ]


drawless board, gather some info, maybe make everyone pay 2 bets with what's usually the best hand

[gaming_mouse]

hey josh,

i'd be considering c/folding.

do you think that you might get a better jack or other hand to lay down? this seems unlikely. otoh, the way the hand played on the flop, i think it's very likely that your up against flush here. but if c/folding is too weak, i do prefer your line to c/calling.

[Brunger]

I like a flop lead. I think this is a turn check I mean that action just screams that someone has a flush draw or at least you beat.

[SCfuji]

are you afraid that this turn is going to be checked through?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
are you afraid that this turn is going to be checked through?

[/ QUOTE ]


I put a lot of pressure on JBB who has overcards and a gut shot, the flop raiser is not dumb enough to raise a flush draw from there, I put pressure on him if he has QJ or KJ, the first flop cold caller is loose-bad, and sfer cna be calling with a lot of hands there, which can be proven by the fact that he told me he had 63.

[SCfuji]

so you really arent expecting the field to thin, just taking control of the hand?

[sthief09]

I'm hoping to thin by representing a flush or two pair or something, I'm protecting by not letting it get checked through, I'm protecting myself against someone taking a stab and raising with a hand like A/images/graemlins/heart.gifTx, and I'm defining my hand by betting into a large feel which is indicating a lot of strength.

[Brunger]

IS your plan to fold to a raise?

[Justin A]

Would JBB raise with overcards if you led the flop?

If not I like the way you played this.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
hey josh,

i'd be considering c/folding.

do you think that you might get a better jack or other hand to lay down? this seems unlikely. otoh, the way the hand played on the flop, i think it's very likely that your up against flush here. but if c/folding is too weak, i do prefer your line to c/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i think so too. you are probably up against a flush. if not, the flush raiser almost certainly has something else that beats you. in the very unlikely case that you are in front there are many redraws out there.
i consider check / folding the best play by far on the turn.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I put a lot of pressure on JBB who has overcards and a gut shot

[/ QUOTE ]Isn't this a pretty narrow range at this point in the hand? You know for a fact that the only two hands he'd raise in that position are AK/AQ?

[thejameser]

the failed c/r sucks, but the turn bet is standard IMO.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
the failed c/r sucks, but the turn bet is standard IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't take it personally, i have the same problem with many other posts to a lesser degree:

i hate your post

you throw in extremely questionable (to say the very least - i refer to the turn here) plays without any reasoning on your side. i consider posts like that as worthless at best.

would you mind telling us why it is standard for you to bet into a crowd of 4 opponents with a weak top pair hand on a very coordinated board, a possible flush and heavy action in the previous betting rounds?

and one other thing: everybody always talks about what is standard, but nobody wants to know what is good. if everybody raises every time UTG with 72o it undoubtedly standard, but it doesn't make that play any better.

[thejameser]

this is for jack,

i bet to take the lead; maybe i am representing a flush, two pair, a set, whatever; i want people to fold as the more that fold, the more MY pot equity goes up. also, you may, may get a better hand to fold weakly(two pair, AJ, small heart). regardless i think the proper play is to bet out into the flop raiser representing great strength and trying to limit the field. i could be wrong, but it seems standard.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I put a lot of pressure on JBB who has overcards and a gut shot

[/ QUOTE ]Isn't this a pretty narrow range at this point in the hand? You know for a fact that the only two hands he'd raise in that position are AK/AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]


huh? he didn't make a pot-pumping flop 3-bet, so I'm sure I have him beat but he probably has a lot of outs. I can possibly make him a bad fold with a hand like AK no hearts, that has 10 outs against me. I also put a lot of pressure on someone with say the Q or 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif and nothing else

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Would JBB raise with overcards if you led the flop?

If not I like the way you played this.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm thinking no because I just bet into 4 people. I feel like if I get raised I'm faced calling down hoping I have 5 outs

[sthief09]

this hand is a good example of the Sklansky 2+2 magazine article where he says that he's always thinking about what his opponents are putting him on. what is an unsophisticated, mediocre hand reader putting me on when I call 2 cold on the flop then lead into 4 people on the turn?

[sthief09]

there is no way in hell I am "probably" against a flush unless there are like 26 hearts in the dekc

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
this hand is a good example of the Sklansky 2+2 magazine article where he says that he's always thinking about what his opponents are putting him on. what is an unsophisticated, mediocre hand reader putting me on when I call 2 cold on the flop then lead into 4 people on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

How mediocre? I feel like your hand is very obvious, which is why I'm not happy with the line. You were in great position to value raise the flop and simply called a 2-flush board, which rules out a flush draw and any strong hand like a set (which should not be waiting for the turn here). That leaves a turned 2-pair or a naked top pair, though with the latter your turn lead implies a flush redraw you don't have. If your opponents are mediocre, maybe you'll get credit for 2-pair, a scared set, or a flush, but I don't know.

I think the deception of leading the flop makes it somewhat more valuable than a check. Both have similar chances to knock players out, a bet possibly moreso if your opponents are scared of getting trapped in a raising war with overcards or other junk. The way you played it only works, IMO, against a mediocre field.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I put a lot of pressure on JBB who has overcards and a gut shot

[/ QUOTE ]Isn't this a pretty narrow range at this point in the hand? You know for a fact that the only two hands he'd raise in that position are AK/AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]huh? he didn't make a pot-pumping flop 3-bet, so I'm sure I have him beat but he probably has a lot of outs. I can possibly make him a bad fold with a hand like AK no hearts, that has 10 outs against me. I also put a lot of pressure on someone with say the Q or 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif and nothing else

[/ QUOTE ]
You said that JBB has "overcards and a gutshot draw". On the turn that puts his range at exactly AK or AQ. Maybe this wasn't your intention - but I think that it's an awfully small range to put him on.

I'm not disagreeing with your thinking if he has one of those two hands. I'm disagreeing that you can put him on such a small of a range at that point.

[thejameser]

fundamental theorem of poker. the more mistakes you cause your opponents to make based on what they think you have, the more you gain. someone that should have raised you may just call, someone who should have called may fold, etc.

[W. Deranged]

Sthief,

I think this is hardly a standard and so a pretty interesting hand.

I think the key to this hand is the flop. I don't particularly like a check-raise here because the most likely bettor is Johnny BB and while a bet from him followed by calls and a check-raise is good for value it does little to protect your hand. You also allow yourself to get in situations like this one, where you are left in the tricky spot of putting multiple bets in in early position on the flop and then having to make (what is to me) a very non-standard decision on the turn.

For this reason I advocate leading the flop. JBB is obviously a good player who knows you well and so you are less likely to be able to use him to protect your hand as you might a less astute player. Even still, though, he might raise a lot of hand's you're ahead of here. You also eliminate the risk of letting the hand check through and allowing weak hands to pick up draws and so forth. Finally, I like a flop lead because I think it will have the tendency (more so than a check-raise) to either: a) get the pot short-handed (if JBB raises and the later players drop) or b) keep the pot small (if it's called through), both of which make the turn significantly easier to play. This will not always happen, but I think that on average a bet will do this better.

Personally, I like three-betting the flop and leading the turn in the event my flop bet is raised; I think it offers more information and might make it easy to get away from the hand on the turn if I'm killed.

[jjacky]

yes, but the other part of the theorem states that you lose every time you make a mistake. and i prefer to avoid that here.

[jjacky]

the mediocre player will be confused and have a look at his own cards to get back on track.

but i don't see your point here anyway. do you think we have the best hand or do you want to bluff through this field?
from my point of view the first chance is slim and the second is more than remote.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
this is for jack,

i bet to take the lead; maybe i am representing a flush, two pair, a set, whatever; i want people to fold as the more that fold, the more MY pot equity goes up. also, you may, may get a better hand to fold weakly(two pair, AJ, small heart). regardless i think the proper play is to bet out into the flop raiser representing great strength and trying to limit the field. i could be wrong, but it seems standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, thanks /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

if you are up against a set and/or a flush, your pot equity is zero and you have no chance to change that with a bet.
if someone with top pair better kicker or 2 pair (or an overpair) is out there and calls you, you are drawing slim.
you wont get out an A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and a K /images/graemlins/heart.gif will probably stay as well.

all in all the situation looks this way for me: your chance to have the best hand is very low, the chance that all better hands will fold is even lower and the chance to pick up the pot with a bet is almost exactly zero. if you are behind you have probably 0 - 3 outs. the situation looks too grim to bet, don't you think so?

[jjacky]

i have no doubt that the likelyhood to be up against a flush is at least 50%.

with 4 opponents to the flop, the threat of someone holding 2 hearts is decent. but look at the flop action: someone bets, get raised and 2 player call cold. this action looks very flushy. and if nobody has a flush: what the hell do all these guys possibly have that you can beat?

[sthief09]

why can't I do both? why can't I bet for value and try to overrepresent my hand at the same time?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would JBB raise with overcards if you led the flop?

If not I like the way you played this.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm thinking no because I just bet into 4 people. I feel like if I get raised I'm faced calling down hoping I have 5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking you go ahead and fold to the raise. When you bet out into this many players, you'll get some very very straightforward play against you.

[private joker]

I don't know if it's standard, but I play this hand just like this and plan to fold to a raise -- since the only hand I can possibly imagine raising me that I beat is A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Tx. All other raising hands are better queens, 2 pair, flushes, or sets. Against 2 pair, my Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif out is too dirty.

[jjacky]

because you pot equity is too low for a value bet imo.

[Jules22]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it's standard, but I play this hand just like this and plan to fold to a raise -- since the only hand I can possibly imagine raising me that I beat is A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Tx. All other raising hands are better queens, 2 pair, flushes, or sets. Against 2 pair, my Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif out is too dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this line.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
because you pot equity is too low for a value bet imo.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you're probably weak-tight

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because you pot equity is too low for a value bet imo.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you're probably weak-tight

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you.

i considered this possibility myself. to get more information i had a deeper look in my pt stats.
combining my 2/4 and 3/6 stats, i am more than 2 SD over 2BB/100. almost all stats are in the normal ranges (with 2.7 postflop agression on average and 3.1 at 3/6 party) posted by several people here in the forum. the fold to a river bet is in the very low end of that range.
after considering those stats (and some experience i had with hand quizzes and discussions) i came to the concluclusion that i am not weak tight. i hope i am right.