Raise?

[brettbrettr]

Co is new to the table, obviously, MP1 is the reason I'm at the table. Very passive fishy type, likes calling with no outs type player.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $5. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 (poster) calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (18.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (14.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>,

I thought a raise might be a decent play here. Discuss.

[Nick C]

Well, let's see. A raise would imitate a Party 3/6 slowplay (as of yesterday anyway, and I don't know about 5/10) with a flopped set of tens. Anyone who thinks you're trying to protect your hand instead may put you on something more like 88, but possibly that person won't want to call 2 anyway.

In any event, driving out a hand that has you reverse-dominated would have its benefits, and getting rid of another ace if someone happens to have one could keep you from splitting the pot if you make a wheel. Getting rid of a 6 would be nice, too, but it's hard to see how someone who has one and is still in at this point won't have other reasons to call besides the gutshot. Still, you never know.

There are some things that make me pessimistic. Anyone who has you reverse-dominated has a pair and quite possibly the same wheel you do. Someone with a king and a pair won't have a wheel, but it could still be top pair, which would be hard to get rid of. I doubt a four will go away, and of course flush draws are staying in too.

With two posters in the hand who have sort gotten trapped so far, one bet at a time, it really is hard to get a sense of what's out there. MP1 does seem to have something, though, and he likes to play with zero outs, so it's going to be hard to get rid of him. It is possible CO just has a draw, but with him and MP1 both having shown interest, I think we need to improve to win.

Ugh. I don't know. I'd probably just call, in such a huge, protected pot, feeling pretty uncomfortable while I was doing it. I'm not really sure what's best.

[Brunger]

It may be best to fold flop but pot is big. I like the turn raise to clear up str8 outs as well a possible pair outs. Small pocket pairs need to fold in case our hand is best, in relation to cutoff. We have ten outs against a ten without our kicker so we can also hit pretty often.

[akvsaq]

Its a big pot but I might consider folding the flop b/c 2 of your outs are tainted. If I did continue I think I like re-raising better but on the other hand, you don't have position and the only thing you accomplish to to thin the field but cannot possibly get free card. Overall, Id lean towards folding in my humble opinion.

[thejameser]

unless i thought i could likely get MP1 &amp; CO isolated, i'm folding the turn. its a huge pot, but you have tainted outs to all of your draws. what about MP2? no reads?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 is the reason I'm at the table. Very passive fishy type, likes calling with no outs type player.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is this type of player leading the flop into a PFR and PF 3-Bettor that you're beating on the turn? You say he likes calling with no outs - what does he bet with?

I understand you're getting 15-to-1 but, you're not closing the action, the lead flop-bettor is next to act, several out's are tainted, with the FISH leading the flop I think there's a good chance you're drawing dead on the turn - I fold here.

[Rico Suave]

Brett:

Clarkmeister posted a 2/4 hand like this a couple years ago that was extremely similar....multiway pot raised out of the blinds with AK, 2 tone flop raised by a late position player, etc. He raised in the spot you are in.

The Dude posted one a while back too, almost like this, and in that thread I mentioned this Clarkmeister post as well. But since I am search function challenged, I cannot find either post /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The CO does not have to be on a flush draw very often to make this raise correct.

--Rico

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister posted a 2/4 hand like this a couple years ago that was extremely similar....multiway pot raised out of the blinds with AK, 2 tone flop raised by a late position player, etc. He raised in the spot you are in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're talking about the post I think you're talking about then I know it---it was my first "Huh? Oh, wow!" 2+2 thread. But that hand is much different. See for yourself:



link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=791991&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

Dude's would be interesting....Not sure I know that hand...

[Rico Suave]

Brett:

[ QUOTE ]
But that hand is much different

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I kind of skimmed the preflop action on your hand.
Still some similarities though.

-Rico

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Brett:
[ QUOTE ]
But that hand is much different

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I kind of skimmed the preflop action on your hand.
Still some similarities though.
-Rico

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding out 1 player on the turn who hasn't shown any aggression in the hand is A LOT different than folding out 3 players - one of which raised PF and another of which lead into that PFR.

This hand really isn't comparable to the ClarkMeister hand.

[Rico Suave]

Crunchy;

[ QUOTE ]
Folding out 1 player on the turn who hasn't shown any aggression in the hand is A LOT different than folding out 3 players - one of which raised PF and another of which lead into that PFR.

This hand really isn't comparable to the ClarkMeister hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right....no similarities at all.

--Rico

[QTip]

I'm so [censored] pissed right now after reading that link!! Where the [censored] are those types of threads now!? I've been posting here with passion for about 7 months, and I've not seen threads like that almost ever. Why are Clarkmeister and Ed and others in that post almost never here anymore? [censored]!

[brettbrettr]

Some more for your viewing pleasure.... (http://poker.favos.nl/)

[QTip]

wow...thanks dude!

[thejameser]

AWESOME threads. ty. maybe now i understand jason t's post on "The State of the Forum".

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
AWESOME threads. ty. maybe now i understand jason t's post on "The State of the Forum".

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the exact same thought.

(I also almost put "Super Pro" in the other thread - so we're very much on the same wave length) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jake (The Snake)]

I think I like a raise here. Most of the time you are indeed behind. However, if you are ahead, raising increases your chance of winning enormously. Even if you are behind, you might be able to fold out better hands from MP and turn your hand into the best hand if CO is only drawing. Finally, even if things don't work out, you still have outs on the river.