Mandalay Bay 4-8: Folding top pair on the flop

[Dynasty]

Clarkmeister and I roamed the Strip looking for a really good game and ended up at Mandalay Bay where a few loosies were making the game very good.

The hand:

UTG limps. I'm 2UTG and limp with 8/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. Three more players limp including a couple of older gentlemen who play somewhat weak-tight, especially post-flop. Small Blind completes. Big Blind, an extremely loose but not overly aggressive player (without the nuts), checks.

The flop is: 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif6/forums/images/icons/heart.gif2/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

It's checked to me and I bet. The two older gentlen call in late position. It's folded to the Big Blind who check-raises. UTG folds. The action is to me and I fold.

[Jimbo]

Pretty weak tight fold, playing in that manner you will fit in perfectly in that game. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif Even though the results of this particular hand may show otherwise. You trying to impress us with your Tommy Angelo impersonation?

[Pollux2]

i'm not sure why you made this fold, i think the fact that you have two backdoor draws + a pair make it an easy call.

still i think its dependent on how good a player you think the bb is. the flop checkraise could mean alot of things here if bb doesn't realize that two LP callers are weak-tight, top pair, straight draw +overcards, middle pair +overcard kicker, two pair....

however, if bb knows the weak-tight nature of the old men and is checkraising anyways, then i think you have to put him on a stronger made hand. minimum 2 pair, and this is most likely since alot of players may wait for the turn to raise with a set.

anyways, i think that even if you put bb on a good hand, you should still call since you have some value in your backoor draws and pair.

another idea, and this ones a little odd but i remember reading it my first hold'em book before HPFAP by i think Ken Warren (?). but you could 3-bet the flop and the weak-tight old men will more than likely muck leaving you heads up with the loose bb. the idea is that if you lose "you can get the money back from the loose player" whereas if you lost it to the weak tights, it would take alot longer.

alright i'm done.

[johnb]

Pollux makes some good points but....I think the fold is perfectly reasonable unless you have some sort of read on the BB that he might check raise with a weak draw or something less than top pair good kicker. Consider...
1) Can you beat whatever the BB is checkraising with with top pair weak kicker.
2) Neither of your draws are to the nuts or near nuts. Hitting either of them might give someone a better flush or straight.

I don't agree that the fold is 'weak tight' at all...

[Jimbo]

johnb sais "Pollux makes some good points but....I think the fold is perfectly reasonable unless you have some sort of read on the BB that he might check raise with a weak draw or something less than top pair good kicker. Consider...
1) Can you beat whatever the BB is checkraising with with top pair weak kicker.
2) Neither of your draws are to the nuts or near nuts. Hitting either of them might give someone a better flush or straight.

I don't agree that the fold is 'weak tight' at all..."

If you are going to limp in with this hand in EP in the first place just how good a flop do you expect? You get a good flop then bet out and muck!!! Not weak tight???? Please!!!!!

[Mike Gallo]

Your starting to sound more and more like Mason.

Seriously, what else could you do? You had kicker problems and someone probably had pocket 10's or 9's.

[Mikey]

ohh, my god.....you seriously have got to be kidding me with this post....

POCKET 9's or POCKET 10's.....

are you serious....????

[balt999]

I think folding is the right play...in my experience, low limit players don't have the imagination to pull off check-raise bluffing....even from loose aggressive players..your probably up against an overpair or outkicked..

But more importantly, how did you women look out there today?? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[scalf]

dyn, what's a matter???monte carlo closed...lol..gl /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[hillbilly]

since the checkraise left such a bad taste in your mouth that you fold top pair on a rainbow flop with two backdoor draws and the pot laying you 12-1, maybe it would have been better NOT to bet the flop in the first place, as this bet likely has no chance of taking down the pot uncontested, imo...just check and see what happens...you may get to call one and close the action or save a bet if it comes back at two...

i realize you likely call the checkraise every time if you are closing the action but don't the WT gentlemen generally just call (increasing your odds) or fold (no fear of a re-raise) the vast majority of the time?

i imagine a case can be made for folding, calling, AND re-raising here. whatever you decided to do is fine with me...

[Ray Zee]

well, even if he had trips you are around 14 to 18 to one dog and you are getting around these pot odds. if he has top two pair you are about 3.5 to one dog, so its an easy call. same with an overpair. so you have to call and if he has a straight draw you are ahead and want to thin the field.
your hand is in great shape in this spot and you may even want to raise to thin the field in case he has a draw. that is the strong play here as you have position on him and can get a free card or not pay off based on the play of the hand.
only if he showed me three sevens might i fold. against all other hands you should play on.

[Pollux2]

I don't think pp 9's or 10's are that out of the question. they are definitely the worst case scenario, however.

the reason i don't think they are out of the question is that they sort of make sense as a hand that a WT old man could have that he wouldn't immediately raise in that situation.

its unlikely a WT old man has something like A7s or something like that. there just aren't alot of ways that that particular flop could've hit tight old men even in LP.

overcards with a flush or straight draw or an overpair would be the first thing i'd put them on as the flop seems to raggedy for them to have gotten a piece of it.

[Pollux2]

i wouldn't consider this flop all that good for 87s especially after being called by two WT's, which i think might scare me more than being checkraised by a loose bb.

with 87s i'm looking for some kind of draw rather than a medium pair in a multiway pot.

but i still think the fold borders on being to tight because of the backdoor draw value.

[Dynasty]

Ray,

I neglected to mention that Mandalay has a $1 and $2 blind structure for their 4-8 game. Therefore, there are 8.5 small bets in the pot rather than the 12 you thought there were.

[Jimbo]

So you "neglected to mention" a fairly significant detail? Dynasty, why did you limp in EP with this hand if you were going to get a good flop, bet out and then fold? Is this an example of superior post flop play or inferior pre flop play? I am having a bit of trouble in distinguishing the difference.

[hillbilly]

"Mandalay has a $1 and $2 blind structure for their 4-8 game."

well that affects my post as well and makes a flop bet much more reasonable against weak tight opponents who you want to fold their overcards...that being said, when you bet the flop they are still getting at least 4.5-1 pot odds on 3.1-1 odds to call with their 6 out draws...and most loosies are going to call a flop bet anyways...

so, what about a flop check anyways? you get to see where the power is and you can just call along as you do want to see the turn here...depending on the action YOU may decide to do the checkraising yourself here.... if it gets checked through, it's not that big a deal.

if the turn card is a non-diamond Ace-Ten you can just check fold the turn for a two dollar investment in the pot.

but if you pick up a big draw you can play accordingly and maybe raise overcards out of the pot and maybe protect your pair of sevens if you miss your draw...because the pot stayed small on the flop...

is this a strategy to concider or not?

[Dynasty]

what about a flop check anyways? you get to see where the power is

That whole approach is wrong. The way to "see where the power is" is to bet and see how your opponents react. If somebody raises, it is much more likely that you've found the power rather than if you had check and a late position player bets.

[hillbilly]

i can see betting the flop and folding to a checkraise if you have no outs....but you may pick up a boatload of outs on the turn....why bet the flop? overcards are correct to call even if they know you have top pair of sevens...and you open yourself to getting pushed off the hand by as little as a open end draw or overpair...

[bmw]

With your backdoor straight and flush draws you have to at least call the raise or even three-bet if it will buy you a free card.

[John Ho]

I think it would be a horrible mistake to check the flop. A free card will easily cripple you. It's not like you have a big pair here. You should also bet because you would welcome a raise from a drawing hand behind you so you can play it out either shorthanded or hopefully heads up. It didn't work out that way, but the result on one hand is irrelevant.

[John Ho]

Sorry, but you're totally wrong here. This is not Omaha, if you hit the backdoor straight or flush it is going to be good almost all the time. Especially the flush. If you hit the straight you will see a lot of ties but rarely will you be scooped. He has got too much of this flop to even consider folding for one more small bet. Even if he was sure he was up against 2 pair he should still call one small bet.

You have to see the turn here. If it's an 8,7,5, or a diamond you have to see the river. And even if it's not you may still want to showdown your hand.

[Mikey]

[Dynasty]

Mikey wants results. I thought posting that I folded was the relevent result.

After I folded, both LPs called the Big Blind's checkraise.

The turn is: 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif6/forums/images/icons/heart.gif2/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifT/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Big Blind bet. One LP raised and the other folded. The Big Blind said "98, huh?" and called.

The river is: 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif6/forums/images/icons/heart.gif2/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifT/forums/images/icons/spade.gifQ/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Big Blind checked. LP bet. Big Blind called.

LP had 98o for the turned nut straight. Big Blind said he had two pair but didn't show. I see no reason not to believe him.