Hero prolly has best hand...is calling better than raising?

[Big Limpin']

-hero in CO, dealt JT clubs
-3 limps, hero limps, button muck (read:hero now button)
-flop Jx4c2c
-check, check, MP2 bets pot-sized

(ok, maybe in dont have the best MADE hand, but with 4flush and TPMK, i likely have the biggest chunk of EV in this pot)

but there are *FOUR* ppls to act behind me (the blinds, and the UTG/UTG+1 limpers)....am i right to smooth call the bet, in hopes of garnering a multiway pot?

-i have position on everyone (read:big'ups on river if i want)
-i have enough of a made hand that im willing to call turn bets on even on non-club turns


Normally, when i have a bomb hand like this (TP, 4flush), i auto-raise...but perhaps calling is better here, b/c of the chance of the EP limps coming along with me???

Yes/No/Mebbe so ????

[treeofwisdom7]

1. you might not have the best flush draw.
2. someone may outdraw you and the turn or river could go to hell.
3. maybe you dont have the best hand.

A. im not good enuf to even think about playing this hand the way you might play it. too many situations might happen that are gonna send me to hell. of course this seems like a hand you would have to play everyday in a ring game.

[lastchance]

How much stack do you have?
Reads?

Calling does invite people to come in, which is ok, and you have position, even better.

I raise here, but I suck at poker. :/

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
How much stack do you have?
Reads? [ QUOTE ]


Oh, im sorry, i forgot to say, it was hella-early, level 1 or 2...hero has ~t1000

reads arent my thang, y'know, plsu being eraly levels, even a read-sensitive player wouldnt have any yet.

I'm really just asking what Chip EV is between the two lines, thats all, perhaps i should just post in the cash game forums an pretend it was a ring game.

To rephrase the question:


Having little chance of being way behind, and likey being well ahead, do i *want* to allow the limpers to come along for the ride?

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
1. you might not have the best flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh please. i have *a* flush draw...that good enough for me...its not a cash game. If the stacks were 5x deeper than they are, then that may be a concern. In a SnG, im assuming my flush draw is good if i make it.
[ QUOTE ]
2. someone may outdraw you and the turn or river could go to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. A's, K's and Q's suck, but remember that the Ac, Kc, and Qc are not only not outs for them, but they are money cards for me. IF any of those 3 cards hit, i for sure break them.
[ QUOTE ]
3. maybe you dont have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, MP2 did pot it...im supposing that i likey dont have the best MADE hand (although i might)...but the combonation of a decent made hand, and a real good draw...im convinced that i have the "best hand".

[Big Limpin']

for FS...bump?

i have 700ish post, probably 200 of them are lame-ass banter...so lets say i have responded to 500 posts. I have made about 50 posts of my own. Dig it? I try to answer your questions, could i PLEASE get a non-fencesitting response here?

I post this b/c i really did not know what to do (raise/call), and i hoped some other smart ppls would give me their line in the same situation. Is that too much to ask?

[MrX]

[ QUOTE ]
-hero in CO, dealt JT clubs
-3 limps, hero limps, button muck (read:hero now button)
-flop Jx4c2c
-check, check, MP2 bets pot-sized

(ok, maybe in dont have the best MADE hand, but with 4flush and TPMK, i likely have the biggest chunk of EV in this pot)

but there are *FOUR* ppls to act behind me (the blinds, and the UTG/UTG+1 limpers)....am i right to smooth call the bet, in hopes of garnering a multiway pot?

-i have position on everyone (read:big'ups on river if i want)
-i have enough of a made hand that im willing to call turn bets on even on non-club turns


Normally, when i have a bomb hand like this (TP, 4flush), i auto-raise...but perhaps calling is better here, b/c of the chance of the EP limps coming along with me???

Yes/No/Mebbe so ????

[/ QUOTE ]

I need more numbers..such as blind level, pot size and relative stack sizes especially of you and the player who pot bet the flop.

[Big Limpin']

[quoteI need more numbers..such as blind level, pot size and relative stack sizes especially of you and the player who pot bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blinds either 10/15 or 15/30
Pot on flop = 6xBB = t90 or t180.
pot bet by MP2 was either t90 or t180
all players have more or less t1000

[Big Limpin']

This if f**king rediculous. Is our forum so polluted that one cannot ask a question and get a response?

All i ask is "Give me you line".

I have got 3 responses, all 3 of which havent said anything about what THEY would do in the situation.

I frickin answer a ton of posts with my line. Some may be right, some wrong, but at least i tell you what i would have done.

I have 700-ish posts, and have made about a couple dozen questions to this forum.

My ratio of advice given vs advice seeked is like 10x.

Why the [censored] cant i get anyone to answer my question?

BL (pissed off) /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Big Limpin']

You guys want me to beautify this up, and bisonbison it to be all cute and proper?

(i actually will, if it will garner one serious response)

[lastchance]

I didn't give you a response because I suck at poker.

Here goes anyway.

I raise to t250/all-in depending on blind sizes. I like my flush draw outs, I don't want to have to make a tough decision on the turn....

Still, calling might be better, especially if you can get people to pay you off often when the flush comes.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
I raise[...]Still, calling might be better

[/ QUOTE ]
Teriffic. Im 4/4 on fence-sitting /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Naw man, i really do appreciate any reponse i can get at this point, so Mr Lastchance, i really do appreciate you responding. But still dude...."raise, but maybe fold is better" /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

SO, what you are saying is, if it was you, you would elect to raise it up, so as to commit the original raiser to the pot, and play a HU pot with him?

Thats acutally what i did do in the hand. So we think alike.

Its just that immeadiately after raising, i said to myself "oh man, i sure would have liked to get paid at 2:1 with this beauty hand...." and wasnt sure if only calling would have been better.

OK, so im gonna take your response as a vote for raise?

[lastchance]

Yeah, but it's not an enthusiatic one. I know, it's fence sitting, but I like to distinguish my "this is pretty close, but I'll do this" type of response from "you really suck for not playing it the way I would" response.

[Big Limpin']

Its not a test or anything. Im not going to wait for someone to give the wrong answer and snap their head off.

Its nothing like that. I really didnt know the line to take ( and i still dont know).

Should i make an anonymous poll?

[adanthar]

Dude, are you drunk or something? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Answer: I raise, because I can get an EP checked QJ to fold, probably get a free card if I need it, fold out overcards in a big pot, and I don't get into a situation where two people overcall, the pot is t800 on the turn and I have to fold to a push.

If you had AcJc I think a call would be *much* better.

[joeadd]

I would def. re-raise here. Not a huge raise, if he made a 90 raise i would make it around 150+90 or so.

My reasoning, although im not sure if its the proper play would be to single out the original raiser. I would assume he has jx, and if you can prevent the other draws from drawing to thier hand, which they would be doing with reasonable good pot odds you can protect your top pair while still having a side out with the flush.

On top, your re-raise will give you a better idea of what he is doing.

[Nick M]

BL...

Like you said you probably don't have the best made hand but you have a great draw and are basically 50/50 on this thing. I don't smooth call here because you are risking losing the pot to a worse hand RIGHT NOW. Meaning there is a slight chance you have the best hand now. So if you smooth call and an ace comes on the turn and there is limpers calling the bet behind you, you're finished. You now have less than a 33% chance of winning on the river...if you have the only jack that is.

If this is second level and there is 6 people seeing the flop there is like what 180 in the pot??? Party blinds I have no idea. Pot sized bet say 160, this is 340 310 of which is not yours ohhhh man that's nice. I say push and hope he folds.

You know there is a theory I have about pushing and just plain raising. Think about this and maybe you can try to apply it to this hand. Sometimes people will fold to a raise but would call the all in. People see the all in as a release of tension. They want to know what You have and they want to know if they will win in the end. They also want to not have to make the decision that will decide their fate. Calling the all in is saying ok lets see what happens. Calling a raise is not an end. It's "ok lets see what happens on the next card." Then there is more decisions. I firmly believe there are situations where a raise will win the pot, but not an all in. I believe that this has everything to do with the opponent you are facing.

Think about this. Have you ever been raised and you had no idea what to do, so you decided to just move in and show it down right there on the flop? Of course. Most of the time it's because you will have too few chips left to fold on the turn. But sometimes you do it because you are scared about what WILL happen if you just call. You don't like that feeling so you re-raise all in and show it down. I know this is like a whole-nother thread but I wanted to mention it because if he bet 100 on the flop you could have conceivably raised to 300 or 350 and he might have folded. But if you moved in he might suspect something or just plain can't stand folding and not knowing. All he needs to do is call this 1 bet and he will know, not 3 bets. I think in this case though it's a push not a raise. You certainly don't want him to call the raise that would suck. It would give you a free card, but an expensive free card...wait does that make sense...yes it does. An expensive free card.

[bones]

I think this is buy-in dependant. The higher the buy-in, the more fold equity you have here (I think).

At the lower levels, I like a min-raise here. It's odd, but I always associate min-raises with more strength than pushes. That's how it seems to work in short-stacked games (cause you're forgoing the extra fold equity that the extra chips provide). I think that signifies more strength, and if you're called, you're very likely to get a free peek at the river if the turn hurts (paint that isn't a club).

Another possibility is that the original raiser is on a club or some other sort of mediocre holding (QJ, flush draw, whatever) and you can push him off of it on the turn.

I'm fairly certain raising is correct...it's just a matter of raising or pushing.