My all in is correct, his call is incorrect, correct?

[HoldingFolding]

33. Was my all in here correct? Unless he has a truly premium hand here (QQ through AA) he should fold here shouldn't he?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2535)
Hero (t4277)
BB (t748)
UTG (t440)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t900</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t4277 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button ????

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
\Unless he has a truly premium hand here (QQ through AA) he should fold here shouldn't he?


[/ QUOTE ]
Just because people should fold doesn't mean they will fold. Your opponents are donks. If this guy is a donk, you really should lay this down. Against a normal $33er, I don't give him enough credit to laydown QQ-AA, so I fold.

[treeofwisdom7]

your telling me you believe he would fold AK - A10, most pp, most broadway, and almost everything?
HOOOHAAAA im gonna move up to the 33's cuz at the 11s they call my 23 with 27 bastards!

[kyro]

Just because his call would be incorrect doesn't make your call correct if he's going to call anyways.

[HoldingFolding]

He seemed to be an experienced player. He actually had AQo - would you lay it down?

[lastchance]

Boy, that'd be a hard laydown. First, I would push preflop here. I think he raised too much of his stack... but I think I could laydown AQ here. I don't know if I would though.

[jon462]

if the BB say has 250 or so after folding, this play will work. If button hadnt committed so much (say you were button and he was BB) this play prolly works. however - especially if you have been bullying so far - when the fish have raised they are much more likely to call here... why not try a stop and go? he is going to feel his AQ is too good to fold here, however one the flop comes and he has missed its a different story here.

[runner4life7]

I would call with AQo and here is why (i would have pushed to being with for the record) I would call because there is a good enough chance you are abusing/using the big stack and I could be a nice favorite. If I win I have a much better chance for 1st where the money is. I'm not sure of the ICM calculations but thast what i would probably do....i think..

[HoldingFolding]

Maybe, but I hadn't really been wielding my stack, the hands I'd shown down had been respectable enough. I think if I'd have been him I would have had to have put me on any pair, Ax and, perhaps, 2 paint.

[HoldingFolding]

Yes, despit having 10+ BB, that makes sense, I would (obviously) have laid down, since my play only works because I think I have almost absolute FE.

[runner4life7]

If you had been playing tight then I think I would be forced to lay down AQo if I made that raise.

[kyro]

If I'm him, yes. But I'm not him and I'd guess that 20% of the people in your "experienced" range lay this down.

[Xenod]

Effective pot is 3600 and it's 1600 for him to call. Unless he puts you on QQ or better then that's a call. It's also important how you've been playing up to this point. If you've been pushing a lot of hands then he might see this as a good time to cripple you, and he's willing to take some risk for the win.

Either he's a fish, or he's playing to win, and not just to cash.

[HoldingFolding]

Sadly, it all ended in tears.... He followed me around the tables for about 20 minutes after that. I apologised profusely, but felt if he really wanted to make the money he should have laid it down.

Ooops, he didn't have AQo he had ATo

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2535)
Hero (t4277)
BB (t748)
UTG (t440)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t900</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t4277 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t1635 (All-In).

Flop: (t7012) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t7012) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t7012) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t7012

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Button has As Th (one pair, queens).
Hero has 3d 5s (straight, six high).
Outcome: Hero wins t7012. </font>

[lastchance]

I thought you said AQo.

ATo is a really easy laydown, and if I can't read that you're bullying any 2 here, AQ is also an easy laydown.

[Nottom]

Why would you apologize for his mistake?

[kyro]

He deserved to lose. And everyone who voted they'd call with AQ would deserve to lose too.

[sleech]

[ QUOTE ]
He deserved to lose. And everyone who voted they'd call with AQ would deserve to lose too.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what range of hands would call the raise with? I'm thinking 99-AA and maybe AK should call the raise.

[Myst]

99-AA only if range is any two.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

Button has As Th (one pair, queens).
Hero has 3d 5s (straight, six high).


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

If he would start to whine about it I would just repeat the phrase "Any two cards can win" over and over again.

[Moonsugar]

It'll End in Tears (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000007SPT/qid=1120017398/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/103-6557558-5587033?v=glance&amp;s=music&amp;n=507846)

[kamrann]

[ QUOTE ]
99-AA only if range is any two.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep this is probably the range, given that you've already invested 900. Interestingly, according to ICM, if you know in advance that the big stack will come over the top of any raise you make with any two cards, you need QQ+ to actually want him to do so, since you need to be a 78% favourite to get a +$EV. This suggests that under these conditions (you know SB will push and BB fold) if you're dealt JJ you should open-fold it, which is fairly bizarre. Of course in practice you'll never know your opponent is guaranteed to come over the top with any two, but still it demonstrates just how extreme this situation is.

As for the OPs perspective, there is a fundamental problem with making this move. As has been noted, it's only correct to do it when you're opponent plays correctly. But you only do it when this opponent has open raised. And since open raising in such a situation is generally idiotic (without strong reads) since it's just asking the big stack to come over the top, there's two likely explanations for someone doing it:

1. They have a huge hand and want you to come over the top of them. Whether it's huge enough for their play to be correct is irrelevant - they're calling.

2. They are stupid. Hence they are probably calling.

Bottom line. Don't commit the cardinal sin of assuming your PP opponents have functioning brains.

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
im gonna move up to the 33's cuz at the 11s they call my 23 with 27 bastards!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny, on a $22 this morning I pushed w/ 77 on the bubble and got called by J7. All four of us were around t2000 and I hadn't done anything excessively for him to believe i was pushing any 2. I know how you feel!

FWIW I lay down A10 without an issue, with AQ I grit my teeth and fold.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
33. Was my all in here correct? Unless he has a truly premium hand here (QQ through AA) he should fold here shouldn't he?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2535)
Hero (t4277)
BB (t748)
UTG (t440)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t900</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t4277 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button ????

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have known that he was going to call your bet, and you made a mistake in not knowing that. The read is pretty easy. He made a huge raise (but not an all-in raise). The size of his raise is stupid, which tells you that he is stupid (I guess he was trying to cover the BB's stack, but a standard 2.5BB or 3BB essentially does the same thing). Plus he was practically pot committed with that stupid raise. So you should have known. If we had to vote whose play was worse, I don't know who I would vote for. He seriously jeopardized his chances of finishing ITM, and you seriously jeopardized your chance of finishing 1st place. So I would say it's a tie.

[Nick B.]

I doubt I would make this reraise. What would you do if he only raised to 500?

[45suited]

To the OP: Check out the post that I made a while back in a more extreme bubble situation... I got pretty much the same response that I'm guessing that you're going to get - relying on your opponents to think or make the "right" play is very dangerous. I learned my lesson from this one.



[ QUOTE ]
Do these people even have any brains whatsoever????

Blinds 200-400

UTG (t50) folds
Button (t1500) raises to 800
SB (t1100) folds
Hero BB (t4750) re-raises all-in

Button calls with AQ!!!
Wins the hand and says, "I knew I'd trap you eventually"

So there's no confusion, I'm not complaining about this, their stupidity accounts for my high ROI, I just thought that you guys would find this as amusing as I did....

[/ QUOTE ]

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
Effective pot is 3600 and it's 1600 for him to call. Unless he puts you on QQ or better then that's a call. It's also important how you've been playing up to this point. If you've been pushing a lot of hands then he might see this as a good time to cripple you, and he's willing to take some risk for the win.

Either he's a fish, or he's playing to win, and not just to cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. $EV&gt;TCEV.

[gisb0rne]

Assuming you raise with any 2 cards, he should call with a lot of hands (using SnG PT):

A7s+
A9o+
KTs+
KQo
66+

That is the full range of non-negative EV calls against your raise with any 2.

Now if I plug that in to his calling range, it's clearly correct for you to raise with any 2.

I think what happens here is that despite UTG being forced in next hand, you are so short stacked that your equity is low as well. Thus you don't lose much by calling and getting knocked out. However, should you call and win you gain a lot. This widens the range of calling hands. Should you have even slightly more chips, say 1000, you should only call with TT+ (even AKs is negative EV).

[HoldingFolding]

The forum does it again; I have learnt something. Both you and kamrann are absolutely spot on. I made a bigger mistake. He can't make that sized raise unless he has a huge hand or doesn't know what he's doing. If he doesn't know what he's doing he'll call the all in and I'll be a dog. [for some reason this reminds me of the final cross-examination in 'A Few Good Men'].

The one caveat is that there's probably a good chance he's not thinking when he sees his AT and makes a standard raise. I go all in over the top, he has to reassess the situation, sees the two small stacks, realises he's made a mistake and folds. He certainly 'thought' about calling for a long time.