Interesting Online HE book, Any comments

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Everyone,
While in my quest for HE odds I found the following website that is set up like a book on HE.

http://www.poker-site.net/table_of_contents.htm

Anyone read it? See any obvious errors?

Also, in Appendix D. Starting Hands, there's an interesting little chart that seems like a nice way to represent starting standards. Easy to remember or laminate anyway. Any thoughts on how good the standards are that it sets forth?

Sincerely,
AA

[Ed Miller]

As I expected before going to the site, the starting hand requirements section is horrible. How it is horrible surprised me a little bit... it has you playing way too tightly and passively. It is also far oversimplified.

Playing preflop correctly is just not that difficult in the grand scheme of things... follow the advice in HPFAP and you will be well on your way to playing correctly. If you compare this advice to that in HPFAP, you will see that there are many discrepancies.

EDIT: Ok... I've read the actual article on preflop play instead of just the appendix (which I read before) and it is a little more reasonable. I take it back... it's not "horrible" but it is certainly not optimal. And much more so, it is very incomplete. The poorest parts are the suggestions of what hands to steal with in late position and how tightly they tell you to play in late position with small pairs and suited connectors.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
To be honest, I've never found the HPFAP starting requirements to be laid out in a memorable way! I realize I'm in the minority. But then I'm a stud player first. I'm used to a list of 9 to 15 starting hand types. All the discussion of HE preflop seems vastly more complicated and much more picked over. Granted, it's probably that stud needs *more* analysis in that area, but the 3 card permutations number much greater, so no one does it.

I've repeatedly posted the Poker FAQ summary of the HPFAP starting requirments in here over the years as done by Michael Hall (aka Abdul Jalib), asking for 2+2 confirmation/denial of it's correctness.

Never get an answer. And some posters actually get indignant about it. Not sure why though.

In any event, Pre-flop starting standards, due to the large body of literature on it, etc. seems to be the hardest part of the game to keep straight for me. I continue to look for something that I can keep in memory as I try to convert from stud. (Or more correctly, add HE to my repetoire!)

Sincerely,
AA

[Ed Miller]

Honestly, I think you are approaching preflop play in 100% the wrong way, AA. It's clear from your other posts that you have trouble understanding where preflop recommendations come from... so you have resorted to trying to memorize them... but you've found that it's too much to memorize. I suggest you spend your time trying to understand the theory behind preflop play rather than memorizing hand groups.

Maybe this will help... I'll lay out preflop hands into "hand types" like in 7CSFAP.

1. Monsters (AA and KK)
These are the best hands by far preflop. They play well against any number of opponents for any number of bets. They build big sets and huge hands... and they also win unimproved relatively often, even against many opponents.

2. Medium-big pairs (QQ-TT)
These hands are strong hands. They play very well against small fields as they often win unimproved. They also play very well against large fields as they will usually win when when they build top set. Against exactly four opponents, though, these hands are not quite at their best. They are still strong hands and should be played as such. They almost always merit a raise if the pot is currently unraised.. but once the pot is raised and reraised in front, you have to begin to worry about domination (playing against a larger pair).

3. Big suited cards (two suited cards, Tens or better)
These hands play well against any number of players, and they are strong because they build top pair/strong kicker hands as well as have flush and straight potential. You should often raise several limpers with any of these hands, as the several ways to win they afford give you an advantage over your opponents. When raised in front, though, many of these hands are no longer playable... as the top pair/strong kicker aspect of the hand is seriously threatened with domination.

4. Big offsuit cards (AK-AJ and KQ)
These hands are strongest against fewer opponents, as the hands they build most often are top pair/strong kicker. You should often raise with these hands because your raise will 1) get more money in the pot with your strong hand, and 2) encourage the pot to remain shorthanded. Against one or two players, these hands even win unimproved a fair percentage of the time. If four or more players have entered the pot in front of you, consider just limping with any of these hands except AK... as your hand has lost a lot of value already and you would like someone else to bet into you on the flop so you can raise if you hit your hand.

5. Medium pairs (99-77)
These hands are difficult to play well. Against many opponents, these hands should be played mainly to flop a set and, as such, should not be raised. Against only one opponent, however, it is often best to raise with these hands in an effort to isolate your opponent and play headsup with your made hand. Your goal is to force him to hit the flop (which he is an underdog to do) or fold.

6. Weak offsuit cards (KJ, QJ, AT)
These are weak hands in a multiway pot. They primarily build marginal top pair hands. You should just limp with these hands if a couple of opponents are in... and shouldn't play these in early position. First in from middle or late position... or after one weak limper... these hands are often worth a raise as they have gained value now that the pot is assured to be shorthanded and that the chance that you are dominated has gone down.

7. Small pairs (66-22)
These hands are generally played to flop a set. Play these when you feel you have the implied odds to flop a set... be less likely to play these if you expect to have to pay multiple bets to see the flop, but more likely to play these if your opponents are likely to go off for multiple bets postflop with worse hands. If you can get in for one bet, these hands are often playable with as few as four opponents.

8. Medium/small suited connectors, gaps, etc. (T9s-43s, J9s-53s, Q9s and J8s)
These hands are implied odds hands. They rarely build strong top pair hands, so they are looking primarily towards building straights and flushes. Getting in for only one bet preflop is vital to the profitability of these hands. It is also better to play these against lots of opponents... but it is more important to make sure that you only pay one bet to see the flop with these hands.

9. Suited Aces and Kings (Axs, Kxs)
These hands gain value from being able to make strong flushes as well as making top pair/weak kicker and having that stand up. Top pair/weak kicker is a marginal holding... and you need to exercise good judgement when you flop such a hand to avoid paying off someone who has you dominated. Folding it every time is not good judgement, though... as much of the value of these holdings does come from the ability to make top pair. Both aspects of this hand dislike preflop action (drawing to the flush and flopping a mediocre hand that stands up) so it is imperative to only see the flop for a single bet with these hands. Position is also important to these hands... as it is much easier to play marginal holdings with position rather than out of position.

I don't intend this as a comprehensive review of preflop play... and many of my explanations are simplified and ignore some of the nuances of poker... but such is life. Hopefully thinking about preflop play like this will help you out...

[mobes]

[rigoletto]

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
I agree. I don't know exactly where the reccomendations come from. I'm trying though! As you can tell from my posts, I'd be the fishy. Heck, I went out last night and got a deck of cards and a calculator... so I'm tryin'....

I've been trying to think more in terms of where the cutoffs by hand type are vrs. the players in the game as of late. But I've got no firm anchors as of yet. Don't have the opportunity to play as much as when was in Vegas, so I get to do more head scratching these days!

But I believe this is good. When I took a shot at trying to earn a living at 7CS, I was UTG. I had quit Citicorp, just come off some Y2K projects and was unemployed, living in Vegas. So I was trying to do it in "fast forward mode" results were about +$3.00/hr. Not too good. Ended up dealing 21 for a while to survive. Anyways, decided I couldn't make a go of it quickly or easily, so I took a position in the Denver area. Bottom line, the idea stays with me, and there are plenty of $5 HE games here. So I figure, why not study first, play second. I was started transtioning to HE in Vegas anyway, just because it's easy to see there's more game selection.

I'll cut and paste this post into my notes and study it a bit. I do highly appreciate the effort.

At some point in another post, I'm planning to try to structure how I think about HE strategy, much like an outline for a book, from a "read the table and players" perspective, backed up with odds etc.

When I get the rough draft out there for discussion I'd definitely appreciate your comments.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. In quickly looking over this (before I sit down to study it hard) I noticed that you mention medium suited connectors. I realize your other classifications cover the cards, but should I *not* think about "large suited connectors"?

[Ed Miller]

...should I *not* think about "large suited connectors"?

I think that you, personally, should not think in terms of large suited connectors. It gets you into trouble because I've seen you characterize a hand like AQs as a "one-gap suited connector." This is a very poor way to think about AQs... first of all, it's the equivalent of a three gap suited connector because it can only make one straight... KJT... and cannot flop an open-ended straight draw. You also tend to then say, "AQs is a one-gap suited connector so I should try to play it cheaply preflop because it relies on implied odds." What you are missing is the whole beauty of AQs... that it has all the benefits of AQo... plus it can make a flush. That's why I stuffed hands like this into the "big suited cards" category. Now there are some very different hands in this group... AKs and JTs are actually quite different. JTs makes more straights, but has much weaker high card value. JTs should be folded to a legitimate raise in front... but you should probably 3-bet with AKs. Having said that, I think all the suited broadway cards have a lot in common.

[DannyP]

There's one aspect of HE that is implicit but not specific in some of NMs categories (where he mentions domination) and ignored in a couple of others, but Ive found it also helps to think in terms of likelihood of avoiding making 2d best hand and being dragged all the way into the river. Even if they are slightly positive EV hands, they add to variance and threaten your bankroll.

Memorizing pre-flop tables, systems etc are all well and good, and could give you an edge over the "any two cards can win" players, but understanding the principles in NMs post not only guides your preflop play but accomplishes several other things:

1. they help focus your priorites in later rounds
2. they help clarify the appropriate betting strategies (slowplay, check raise, semi-bluff etc)
3. they help in reading hands (or more importantly not misreading hands) of other (rational) players who may not have memorized exactly the same table you did, but still attempt to play positive EV HE
4. understanding those principles are the first step toward understanding modifcations necessary for different circumstances (short handed play, tournament play etc.)

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
I agree. I've finally waken up to the fact that the overcard factor + the flush factor makes the large suited cards different from how I was initially thinking. Especially after some twodimes runs. Nothing like numbers to wake you up (or put you to sleep!).

I suspect I should be thinking of the no-gap pairings as potential straights, and straight flushes as well?

I suspect not considering overcard value is stud holdover, since I never really thought too much about overcards in stud. Rarely called the bring in just for overcard value.

Though I have to admit, the one and only Royal I ever caught started out as a two flush, all suited, overcard, 3 card hand. (Been trying for years to remember the exact order those cards came in! Just can't seem to do it other than to say it was a royal in clubs and the other two painted cards were spades.)

In any event, I appreciate the thought in your answers. Since I make a living explaining technical details and looking for software defects, clear, well structured technical writing is something I can appreciate first hand!

Sincerely,
AA

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi Danny P.

I Agree, I've been looking for the understand part... so that I don't have to memorize a table by rote and have no idea why I'm doing what I'm doing.

I posted in the past asking what folks felt the guiding principles were. There were some good answers, but as many "it's too complicated for that" answers as well.

I think Major's post does that second line of reasoning in quite nicely.

I still believe that knowing the odds of common scenarios is important as well also, though. I don't think you can take the math out of it until you've figured out methods that incorporate the numbers somehow.

Thanks for the additional clarifications.

Sincerely,
AA

Hi AA,

If you're goal is to make HEPFAP starting hand easier to commit to memory, here's a suggestion: If you have or can get hold of Lou Krieger's LL HE book, you'll notice that his starting hand requurement is a graphical representation very similar to HEPFAP except that his categories are limited to Early, Mid and Late Position whereas HEPFAP have 7 or 8 groupings. By using 7 0r 8 different colored background in the Krieger's grid you can create a similar yet more detailed graphical representation which is easier to mentally visualize. That's what I did and I always carry a small copy - about the size of business card in my wallet for easy review when I need it. Just an idea.