Ethical thing / best hand not winning at showdown

[DeathDonkey]

This situation occurred as I just sat down in a 10/20 at my local casino. I took the 4 seat and it was one of the first hands I saw at the table, I was not involved in the hand. The 8 seat raised and the 3 seat (on my immediate right) called. Both are experienced players and I know them both and am friendly with both etc.

Flop was something like A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 seat checks, 8 seat bets, 3 seat calls.

Turn is 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 seat now bets, 8 seat calls.

River is 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 seat bets, 8 seat calls.

3 seat announces "Queen" and shows Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif for Queen high no flush. 8 seat looks at it quickly and looks mad and begins to muck but clearly flashes the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif I realize he thinks 3 seat has the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif for some reason. Both the 3 seat and I see the flashed cards from across the table but he mucks them face down and the dealer pushes the pot to the 3 seat.

I am friendly with the 8 seat and like him a whole lot better than the 3 seat, so I feel a bit bad for him. I watch 3 seat to see if he is going to say anything but he begins stacking and I quietly say to him "you're gonna take that that way?" And he sorta gives me a dirty look and shrugs and I shake my head and say nothing more.

Anyone handle this differently?

-DeathDonkey

[TheWorstPlayer]

Speak up faster or don't speak up at all. Once the cards hit the muck, I'm not saying anything - although I would shoot a look at the 3 seat probably.

[Jimmy The Fish]

I've pointed out incorrect dealer decisions when the players turned their cards face up, but I think the player has to show his cards in order to get the deus ex pokina.

If I'm in Seat 8, I'm going to confirm with the dealer that Seat 3 does indeed have the queen-high flush. That's my responsibility as the holder of my hand -- if I muck a winner because I read someone's hole cards wrong, that's my fault. Period. If he gives it back, that's not "right", it's just magnanimity on his part.

If I'm in Seat 3, my action probably depends on my status. I'f I'm playing at a soft table, and I'm ahead, and the mood at the table is favorable, I'd probably write off the hand. I'll get it back, and the goodwill gesture is more likely to loosen players than to tighten them up. On the other hand, if I'm in the middle of a downswing, or Seat 8 has been acting like a jerk, then I might keep it.

[belloc]

My general rule in the cardroom is not to get involved in discussion unless I'm involved in the hand. If there's a dispute between two players (or something like what happened to you), I leave it to the dealer/floorman to officiate, and for the players to defend themselves. As much as it feels wrong to let injustice go unnoticed, it just isn't your place to get involved.

[beerbandit]

a lot of it would depend on how he said queen --- it seems you would be able to tell if said to sound like the flush or just queen high


not being in the hand or even "at" the table yet would have somethign to do with it also

but if he said queen and opened his hand on the table and the other player mucked, then it would appear to be his own fault

-- i was a little to late to say anthing also, once the hands are in the muck and the other player has the pot


if the player with qj /images/graemlins/spade.gif saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

cheers

[canis582]

Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

[/ QUOTE ]

No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

True story: My friend and I are playing 3/6 at local B&M. He has Kx, board is K88x8 (3 clubs). He calls a bet on the river. Bettor flashes him 2 clubs and my friend throws his hand away. After the pot is pushed, I ask him "You didn't even have a pair?" He responds, "Yeah, i had a King." "Dude, you just threw away a winning hand." This was a hand he was entitled to showdown because he called the last bet, but because he's a donk and can't read the board threw away the winner.

No one shot an angle here, the guy was just being a donk.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone handle this differently?


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

He didn't table his cards. It's his own fault for losing this pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Both are experienced players

[/ QUOTE ]

One of them doesn't seem to fit this description.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Speak up faster or don't speak up at all. Once the cards hit the muck, I'm not saying anything - although I would shoot a look at the 3 seat probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP isn't in the hand plus it's not his hand to protect. He shouldn't speak up at all.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
if the player with qj saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly is he supposed to handle it.

The hand doesn't end until the pot is pushed. If some idiot wants to muck the winner, and I've been that idiot before, screw him. That's why you table your hand and let the 'cardspeak'.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is saying 'hold on'? Only the player with the AJ should be saying that. Anyone else deserves to get 'Caponed'.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. AFTER the hand say something.

[ QUOTE ]
No one shot an angle here, the guy was just being a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was likely a small angle. But how hard is it to table your hand? Or actually read the hand face up? Showdown is the easiest street to play, isn't it?

b

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

[/ QUOTE ]

This only leads to hard feelings, don't mention that he threw away a winner.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No one was shooting an angle here. One guy clearly mucked his cards. End of story. Reading the board is a poker skill as well. If I was the OP, I would have mentioned it after the pot was pushed, "Why did you muck the winning hand?"

[/ QUOTE ]

This only leads to hard feelings, don't mention that he threw away a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also leads to a very important lesson.

b

[phish]

I personally think the dealer is at fault here. It is his job to announce the hand. When the guy turns over the QJ, the dealer should take the cards, put them in the middle, push up the 3 other cards on the board (AKx) and announce 'AKQJ high'. This way, if the other player is attentive at all, he may realize that there is no flush.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
the dealer should take the cards, put them in the middle, push up the 3 other cards on the board (AKx) and announce 'AKQJ high'

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. THe ONLY time a delaer should try to take a player's cards is to muck them. A player should never let a dealer have his cards until he sees he is beat or has the pot.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
This is incorrect. THe ONLY time a delaer should try to take a player's cards is to muck them. A player should never let a dealer have his cards until he sees he is beat or has the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with that, but is it correct for the dealer to announce the putative winning hand? While I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the dealer's fault, the situation could possibly have been avoided if the dealer announced "Queen high." ('AKQJ high', though technically correct, strikes me as overkill; no one refers to their hold 'em hand that way.)

Just wondered, since Randy always seems to be one of the more informed posters on this forum.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
but is it correct for the dealer to announce the putative winning hand? While I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the dealer's fault, the situation could possibly have been avoided if the dealer announced "Queen high." ('AKQJ high', though technically correct, strikes me as overkill; no one refers to their hold 'em hand that way.)

[/ QUOTE ]

THis really depns on the limit. I am playing too many hands to go back to the OP, but in smaller games the dealer should announce the hnad "queen high" in bigger games the delaer should be quiet and deal. What consitutes a bigger game would vary by market.

[steamboatin]

One player to a hand please.

[PokerBob]

What an [censored].

[captswifty]

Unless he tables his hand, you shouldn't say anything. If he put his cards faceup on the table and the dealer miscalled his hand, then you should say something.

Since he didn't want the table to see what he was playing by not showing the cards faceup, he forfeited any right to the pot. I would be mad if someone pointed this out to him if he didn't table his hand. I think you did the right thing by not saying anything.

[CrashPat]

This is an obvious one player to a hand thing. If he does not table his hand and mucks he loses. I do not lose sleep over it. One night I was playing and my buddy had A6 and some other guy had A7, the other guy tabled it but the kicker didn't play, my buddy showed the hand to the dealer and mucked. I saw the hand, the dealer saw the hand, but my friend never showed it down and it was not our place to tell him his hand was good.

If you cannot read the board you do not need to get the pot.

I have done it before and I would not want somebody to tell me how stupid I was before I mucked. If I am too dumb to read the cards and I should lose the pot. I have been lucky and misread the board and showed my hand and been rewarded the pot, I was so suprised that I was getting a pot shipped to me that I tipped the dealer a lot more than I should have. :P

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he tables his hand, you shouldn't say anything. If he put his cards faceup on the table and the dealer miscalled his hand, then you should say something.



[/ QUOTE ]

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
This situation occurred as I just sat down in a 10/20 at my local casino. I took the 4 seat and it was one of the first hands I saw at the table, I was not involved in the hand. The 8 seat raised and the 3 seat (on my immediate right) called. Both are experienced players and I know them both and am friendly with both etc.

Flop was something like A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 seat checks, 8 seat bets, 3 seat calls.

Turn is 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 seat now bets, 8 seat calls.

River is 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 seat bets, 8 seat calls.

3 seat announces "Queen" and shows Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif for Queen high no flush. 8 seat looks at it quickly and looks mad and begins to muck but clearly flashes the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif I realize he thinks 3 seat has the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif for some reason. Both the 3 seat and I see the flashed cards from across the table but he mucks them face down and the dealer pushes the pot to the 3 seat.

I am friendly with the 8 seat and like him a whole lot better than the 3 seat, so I feel a bit bad for him. I watch 3 seat to see if he is going to say anything but he begins stacking and I quietly say to him "you're gonna take that that way?" And he sorta gives me a dirty look and shrugs and I shake my head and say nothing more.

Anyone handle this differently?

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

The way i see things if you dont have cards you should STFU! Seat 8 misread his oppenents hand, the oppenent did nothing unethical, Seat 3 mucked its over.

[trevorwc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless he tables his hand, you shouldn't say anything. If he put his cards faceup on the table and the dealer miscalled his hand, then you should say something.



[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this happened in an Omaha hi / low game I was playing the other day. Guy called straight as he tabled his hand, and the opponent showed down a higher straight. As the dealer was starting to muck the "losing" hand, I piped up because he had two baby diamonds for a flush. I kind of felt bad "taking" the pot from the guy with the higher straight, but it's not his pot to take, and I feel it's anybody's responsibility to make sure the winning hand gets the pot, as long as it's tabled.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Once tabled, it is primarily the dealer's responsibility for calling the hand. If the dealer gets it wrong, it is up to the other players to point this out immediately.

It is the player's responsibility to table his cards. Failing to do so means he gets no protection and his hand is dead.

I won one of my biggest pots at the end of a 12 hour session, when I angrily mucked my "losing" set face up. I didn't notice that the fourth club that hit the river also paired the board. Had I flashed my set to the other player, then mucked face down, I would not be entitled to the pot.

[MrDannimal]

Depends on how fast the guy with the J /images/graemlins/club.gif went through the flash/muck/realize process.

If a guy flashes his hand to the people around him as he folds (which I hate, BTW, even when I'm one of the guys being flashed. Though I hate it less then because of the free info) and he has the winner, I'm going to point it out if I see it. I had this happen when a guy was flashing/staring at a straight flush that he didn't see, disgusted at losing to a K-high flush from a donkey.

I don't care if I'm in the hand or not, it's in the best interest of the game in general for the best/right hand to win the pot, and I'll do that for anyone so it's not like I'm playing favorites. Likewise, if some clown is flashing his hand before a fold, I'll tell anyone that asks what it was. If the flasher gets pissed, he can stop flashing and showing everyone how he can make the "tough fold" or how he had the "best hand" and has to fold it because the "fish" sucked out on him again.

[toots]

I was wondering about this.

I was playing a Baby Omaha game a couple months ago, and saw the low pot awarded to the wrong guy. Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

Still, I've been wondering what I really should have done.

[beetyjoose]

I always hate to see someone win a pot with a losing hand, but at the same time why can't people just pay attention? I would never let a pot go unless I clearly saw both of my opponets hole cards or asked the dealer what he had.

At the start of the thread I believe you said both of these players were experienced. I would think this is pretty much inexcusable for someone to let a pot go that easily.

[MrDannimal]

I don't understand how people could do that either. But then, I can't understand how someone calls 3 cold on the flop with T5o on a board of AK7, and I've seen it so who knows?

I did the opposite once, where I had KQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and another guy had KQo. Flop came ATx with two /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, we hit the J on the turn and went raise happy. The river was a 3rd diamond, but by now I'd forgotten I had diamonds because I was in "we both have KQ and are chopping" mode, so I just call his river raise of my bet and say "I think we've got the same hand".

I flip over my flush, the dealer calls it and I feel like ass for telling the guy were going to chop. Sure, I saved him some $$ and I was freerolling from the flop, but I still felt like a donkey for forgetting I had diamonds.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive been in this situation. A nice loud 'HOLD ON' is in order, otherwise its over before you know it.

The guy was shooting an angle, So are the mucked cards still live?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only is a "HOLD ON" not in order, it would be really uncalled for to speak up like that.

GoT

[sully4321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if the player with qj saw the other players hand i do not think that he handled the situation properly

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly is he supposed to handle it.

The hand doesn't end until the pot is pushed. If some idiot wants to muck the winner, and I've been that idiot before, screw him. That's why you table your hand and let the 'cardspeak'.

b

[/ QUOTE ]


he's not an idiot, the guy said "queen"... 8-seat is hoping the other guy doesn't have the queen of clubs, it's the only card he is worried about. then at showdown, the guy says "queen" -- not "queen high", just "queen"; aka the word the 8-seat has been repeating in his head the last 5 minutes. disappointed, he mucks cuz a q-high flush beats a j-high flush. the dealer should have said "q-high" or "q-high no flush" out loud.

the 3-seat is an angle shooter, a cheater, and a scumbag. he should be shot in the face for disgracing the game.

i would have spoken up immediately, my business or not. especially if i liked the 8-seat better /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[steamboatin]

Once the cards are face up on the table, then the cards speak and it is okay to correct a dealer error.

This entire discussion revolves around the difference between seeing someone's hole cards as they are mucked and cards that are shown down face up on the table.

If I accidently see someone else's cards and He mucks his hand, it is against the rules (ONE PLAYER TO A HAND) for me to tell him how to play his hand.

If both hands are shown down face up then the CARDS SPEAK rule applies.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering about this.

I was playing a Baby Omaha game a couple months ago, and saw the low pot awarded to the wrong guy. Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

Still, I've been wondering what I really should have done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the hands are tabled, now you can speak about the hand even if you're not involved at that point. Anyone who gets pissed at you for speaking up at that point is an idiot.

Dealers are human and make mistakes. In these cases, it's up to the players to protect the integrity of the game if possible.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on how fast the guy with the J went through the flash/muck/realize process

[/ QUOTE ]

No it shouldn't. It depends on whether he tables his hand.

[ QUOTE ]
and he has the winner, I'm going to point it out if I see it. I don't care if I'm in the hand or not, it's in the best interest of the game in general for the best/right hand to win the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though you'd be clearly violating one of the main rules in the cardroom? wow. Do that 2 or 3 times, I'm sure some would try and get you tossed out. I'd call the floor on the first time if you tried to justify it. That's not in the best interest of the game. 1 player to a hand, please.

b

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you had a responsibility to speak up.

[bernie]

It's not the 3-seat guy's fault the 8 seat guy can't just table his hand. Much less, actually read a hand that's tabled.

b

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering about this.

I was playing a Baby Omaha game a couple months ago, and saw the low pot awarded to the wrong guy. Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

Still, I've been wondering what I really should have done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the hands are tabled, now you can speak about the hand even if you're not involved at that point. Anyone who gets pissed at you for speaking up at that point is an idiot.

Dealers are human and make mistakes. In these cases, it's up to the players to protect the integrity of the game if possible.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, if you play Omaha live, expect to do this at least once a session. Damn game is confusing enough and I know what I'm doing.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Damn game is confusing enough and I know what I'm doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's one reason I don't play it. I get lost in my hand. I know lots of dealers hate it when they first start dealing it. I remember 1 new dealer who was dealing it. She was having a hard time but trying. Then some old idiot starts bellowing how the room oughtta get a dealer that can deal it right, totally humiliating her. Not that he couldn't have helped her out at all. No, he'd rather make a scene.

I really felt for her on that one. She was a terrible dealer for awhile. Including lack of effort and all(though not the incident above). I used to contemplate leaving for her down she was so bad. But now she's much improved. I'd easily give her the most improved award last year. She's come a long way. Thank god.

b

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you had a responsibility to speak up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then if there's a next time, I'll speak up.

Thanks.

[Blackdirt12]

I haven't read the responses, but I'd open my mouth. I was in a hand once where I made a flush on the river to beat two pair. I turned over my spades, which the dealer didn't recognize as a flush, and my opponant said "two pair", and flipped over his cards. The player on my left said something to me like "nice river" and I looked over to him confident the pot was mine, and didn't pick up that the dealer had awarded the pot to the two pair...luckily a guy on my right realized what was going on right before I did and spoke up before the dealer mucked my cards...if he hadn't said anything I think my cards would've hit the muck before I could stop him, so when I see a mistake, even if I'm not in the hand I'll speak up.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read the responses, but I'd open my mouth. I was in a hand once where I made a flush on the river to beat two pair. I turned over my spades, which the dealer didn't recognize as a flush, and my opponant said "two pair", and flipped over his cards. The player on my left said something to me like "nice river" and I looked over to him confident the pot was mine, and didn't pick up that the dealer had awarded the pot to the two pair...luckily a guy on my right realized what was going on right before I did and spoke up before the dealer mucked my cards...if he hadn't said anything I think my cards would've hit the muck before I could stop him, so when I see a mistake, even if I'm not in the hand I'll speak up.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you'd be clearly violating a main rule of cards if you did that in the OPs hand. What is so hard to understand about that that some in this thread don't get that? Better yet, why not reach over and table his cards for him? What's the difference?

You do understand the difference between your situation and the hand the OP described? There is a huge difference between tabling your hand, and not tabling it. One invokes the cardspeak rule. The other, clearly, doesn't.

b

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the 3-seat guy's fault the 8 seat guy can't just table his hand. Much less, actually read a hand that's tabled.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right: it's not his fault that 8-seat mucked. It is his fault that he was shooting an angle, if that was the case.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt; maybe he really didn't notice the board was 4-suited or for whatever reason he wanted to declare his queen high. But that's not the most likely case.

[steamboatin]

How can declaring your hand be an angle shoot?

He had a queen and He said queen. The other player made a mistake when He mucked the winner. I have done it, and probably anybody with more than two posts has done it also. You soon learn to table your cards.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read the responses, but I'd open my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do yourself a favor. Read the responses. You might learn something.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not the 3-seat guy's fault the 8 seat guy can't just table his hand. Much less, actually read a hand that's tabled.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right: it's not his fault that 8-seat mucked. It is his fault that he was shooting an angle, if that was the case.


[/ QUOTE ]

People really need to stop suggesting that this was an angle shoot. The opponent mucked his hand intentionally. He didn't intend to toss them face up, have it hit an edge and land face down. He didn't accidentally toss them into the muck when fumbling with the cards to turn them face up. He mucked his cards. He willingly forfeited the right to the pot.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cards were tabled, and clueless dealer and involved players didn't see the proper low because it was a low board with lots of counterfeiting in both hands. Since I wasn't in the hand, I took the STFU approach and let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you had a responsibility to speak up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once tabled, it is everyone's responsibility to correct any dealer errors. I posted a month or two ago about a 2/4 hand I played with Mrs. Milo at Canterbury. Dealer awarded the $39 pot to a player, and I realized mid-deal of the next hand that it should have been a chop. Dealer called over the floor, they recreated the hand and the floor took the $39 from the player. They then ran back the tape, came back 20 minutes later and chopped the pot.

[TomBrooks]

I don't say anything at the table, before or after the cards are mucked. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's to mind my own business.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not the 3-seat guy's fault the 8 seat guy can't just table his hand. Much less, actually read a hand that's tabled.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right: it's not his fault that 8-seat mucked. It is his fault that he was shooting an angle, if that was the case.


[/ QUOTE ]

People really need to stop suggesting that this was an angle shoot. The opponent mucked his hand intentionally. He didn't intend to toss them face up, have it hit an edge and land face down. He didn't accidentally toss them into the muck when fumbling with the cards to turn them face up. He mucked his cards. He willingly forfeited the right to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it was an angle shoot, you have to table your hand. Let them angle shoot all they want like this. Cardspeak, baby!

b

[bernie]

I mentioned this in another response but I think it's a great question to illustrate why you don't open your yap during this situation.

If you're going to speak up before the player mucks and the player didn't table his hand, why not just take the cards from the dolt and table them yourself? Would that be wrong? How do you think that would go over if you did that? It's the same thing.

b

[sully4321]

enough of this technical "he mucked his hand"... "he didn't muck his hand"... "once they hit the pile face-down"... "the cards speak only if it is tabled"... this is all bullshit

the best hand wins the pot, which in this case was the J of clubs, not the Q of spades. the guy with the Q knew he was angle shooting -- it is clear because of the reaction he gave the OP after the hand.

enough technical bullshit, let the best hand win like it's supposed to.

[ThinkQuick]

Listen buddy. Mucking cards plays a part in poker games. You're permitted to fold your hand face down and not give any information. Unfortunately if you fold it face down then its mucked and you can't win the pot. This is an important but very simple concept. I see many players who turn every single hand up at the river in case they missed something. Maybe you should do this if you think you will screw up.

Today I played a hand where I had top pair and the river brought a flush. Previously Quiet guy in the hand bets and I call, and he declares Ace high. And I wait, and he shows the ace of spades, and I wait, and he shows a non spade. So I table the winner. Just wait to see cards because cards speak gosh darnit.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
enough of this technical "he mucked his hand"... "he didn't muck his hand"... "once they hit the pile face-down"... "the cards speak only if it is tabled"... this is all bullshit

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, these are the rules, and they are posted on the walls of every cardroom. They are very clear in the interpretation. Have you ever been in a cardroom and read them? No offense, but the above statement is absolute crap.

[ QUOTE ]
the best hand wins the pot, which in this case was the J of clubs, not the Q of spades

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if they are tabled. You are absolutely right. Sorry, just flashing your hand doesn't cut it. The hand isn't over until the pot is pushed. Is it that hard to understand? Do we need to draw a diagram?

Like my question, feel free to snap the guys cards out of his hand and table them for him and see how well that goes over.

I dare you.

Really, I'm sure no one would call you on it.

b

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
the best hand wins the pot, which in this case was the J of clubs, not the Q of spades. the guy with the Q knew he was angle shooting -- it is clear because of the reaction he gave the OP after the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have ruled many times that the best hand wins. That is not the case with the J of clubs here, if just flashed for a second as he was mucking, maybe it was the J of spades and the OP saw it wrong. This player made no claim for the pot so he has no recourse in this case. Also note if the player wiht his Q would ahve said "Q high flush" the player with the J wins the pot by rule if he mucks his hand.

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
Also note if the player with his Q would have said "Q high flush" the player with the J wins the pot by rule if he mucks his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

what is this rule?

does it apply even if you call 'straight' when you have a flush as well?

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
what is this rule?

does it apply even if you call 'straight' when you have a flush as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you intentionally overcall your hand and your opponent mucks they win the pot. So no, if you call straight and have have a flush your hand is live becasue calling straight could not have caused a player that can beat a flush to fold.

[Spook]

If it was the Jack of spades, then the ace he mucked could have won the hand.

Angleshooting. Especially when it is the 3 seat vs. the 8 seat and the 3 seat knew the 8 seat didn't have the queen of clubs.

[Sparks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is this rule?

does it apply even if you call 'straight' when you have a flush as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you intentionally overcall your hand and your opponent mucks they win the pot. So no, if you call straight and have have a flush your hand is live becasue calling straight could not have caused a player that can beat a flush to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It the guy would have said "Queen high flush" and everything else happened the same, it would have been an interesting decision, but I think the A-J would have still lost the hand. The common rule is that the casino has the right to do what's best for the game, and that means if someone intentionally miss-calls their hand, a mucked hand which was flashed can be declared the winner. The problem here would be that the Q was a spade, and the guy could just claim he misread his hand. It would have been a tough decision for the floorman. Un-mucking a hand is a rare and significant event in a cardroom, but if it was the Q of hearts and he says "Queen high flush", then it would be pretty easy for the floor to award the pot to the mucked A-J.

That's the way I've heard it explained by a few floormen anyway.

Sparks

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
if someone intentionally miss-calls their hand, a mucked hand which was flashed can be declared the winner. The problem here would be that the Q was a spade, and the guy could just claim he misread his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The floor should consider the experience of the player but in this case there needs to be strong evidence that they did not intentionally miscall their hand. A floorperson that has to rule on this point should start with a presumption that it was intentional and look for any reasons to believe it was not intentional.

[sully4321]

guy was an angleshooter. a cheater.. end of story. you know it, i know it.

by the way, that "i dare you" comment was sweet, tough-guy.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
guy was an angleshooter. a cheater.. end of story. you know it, i know it.

by the way, that "i dare you" comment was sweet, tough-guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough guy? Whatever that means...

Please. Go ahead and table the guys hand. If you think you're so right in your decision you should have no problem doing this.

b

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
guy was an angleshooter. a cheater.. end of story. you know it, i know it.

by the way, that "i dare you" comment was sweet, tough-guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop calling it an angle shot. Best hand won, period. If everyone folds or mucks, the only remaining hand wins.