AA - butchered every street

[pokerhooker]

A new unknown player sits down and posts in middle position. Late position player limps in and a tricky, aggressive player raises in the SB. I'm in the BB with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Who would 3-bet here? I thought about it, but decided instead to trap the poster and limper for a small bet and then raise the SB on the flop.

Flop is: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Tricky SB checks, which I absolutely didn't expect. I bet it and get raised by the poster. LP limper folds, as does the SB.

Who would 3-bet here? Since it's headsup now, and there are no draws on board, I just call planning on raising the turn.

9 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the turn...

I check... he checks!? My plan fails again.

River 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, he raises /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[mach3]

Bet, raise - do something. Definitely 3 bet the river.

[sekrah]

Pick up your feet and run with those cards!

Too many people try to get cute with Aces because they see them so rarely..

Play them fast and furious.. you should have 3-bet preflop, 3 bet the flop, bet the turn.

He have A-2? You raise that out of the pot on the flop.

[mplspoker]

You should not be playing anything above 2/4. No offense, just honest truth. Go back down in limits.

[esspo]

3-bet pre-flop, 3-bet flop, lead turn, go ahead and call the river raise. That raise means either that he has nothing and thinks he can move you off a better hand or has a 2 at minimum. Either way you aren't getting paid off by a worse hand.

[pokerhooker]

Generally, I agree... that's why I posted that I butchered every street. But as a counterpoint, I contend that it's because one gets aces so rarely that I was looking to extract some extra money.

By 3-bettng preflop, I most likely knock out the poster and limper, whose hands I'm not really fearful of. Had I QQ or KK, I would gladly knock out A-rag.

Was it worth it to leave two people in for an extra BB? I guess that's the crux of my question. I chose to try to set them up to make even bigger mistakes postflop.

[BlackAces]

[ QUOTE ]
By 3-bettng preflop, I most likely knock out the poster and limper, whose hands I'm not really fearful of. Had I QQ or KK, I would gladly knock out A-rag.

Was it worth it to leave two people in for an extra BB? I guess that's the crux of my question. I chose to try to set them up to make even bigger mistakes postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not even an extra BB, it's an extra SB. SB would call your 3-bet, meaning one additional SB in the pot preflop instead of 2. (He might also cap, which would make the pot sizes equal in either case).

So, for one extra SB, you created 4-way action with a hand that is much better off headsup, put yourself in poor position throughout the hand, as opposed to acting last on every street against one player, and really have no additional information as to what the poster and button have. I wouldn't have done it.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Who would 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]


good players

[baronzeus]

Here's your strategy. Raise preflop. Raise flop. Bet turn. Bet/call river.

[elysium]

hi pokerhooker

when you have that in EP, it's usually better to get the bets into the pot as fast as you can. from the UTG positions, you just won't be able to raise the field like you can from LP, so not raising to induce a player to betout on your left in the expensive round, who undoubtedly you would then check-raise, isn't a good idea because, as you've learned, he or she may not betout when you check. and from the EP position, if the player who you think will bet doesn't bet, you won't be able to get the bet in until the next round most of the time.

in EP position, your AA isn't a check-raising hand. there aren't enough A's in the deck to give you the assurance that a big betting hand is behind you. your AA is often the only betting hand out there. this is slightly less true with KK, but from first position you must still take the initiative, especially on the expensive rounds.

there are always exceptions, and two exceptions that i can think of right off the bat would be when a very aggressive opponent who always bets when checked to is somewhere near to your left in the field, and of course when your opponent on your immediate left gives a reliable indication that he will be betting. if the aggressive opponent is in LP position, it is still better to betout. you gain little by check-raising and driving out the MP's or having to call the LP betout because you want the extra bets in the pot.

there's another reason, though, for betting your hand yourself.

notice that on the flop, when the SB checks to you, you are caught a little off guard. this is not good. in a poker game, when your opponent does something that you aren't expecting him to do, too much focus is lost in the interum (where is my little webster's happy...i mean poker? oh little webster's....where are you?). hopefully that's how you spell 'interum'. nah, me poker? G.E.D. say, come to think of it, where is my G.E.D. anyway? eh, it doesn't matter. it's just a piece of paper. being able to spell all on your own, now that's something.

where were we? i'm quite sure that i must have been lecturing you on remaining focused throughout the duration of the hand. now, had you raised on the pre-flop like you were suppose to, you would have been expecting the SB to check to you. you action following his check would be well planned, well timed, etc., and there would have resulted a spill over effect of confidence, and....surety.

surity, sureity?

instead, a spill-over....spillover? a spill over of confusion ensued (oh brother). he checked, you went, 'what the....?', and a comedy of errors....ensued.

am i getting this right?

what you must learn is that when you are acting in EP with a strong made hand, you must take the initiative unless you are very sure that your very predictable opponent on your left will betout and allow you to check-raise. you must know ahead of time that up front in EP position with a strong made hand, if the SB checks, you will bet; if he bets, you will raise. you will do this because firstly, you must get the bets in there right away; secondly, trying to outguess your opponents from that position is nearly impossible without incurring loss of focus and encountering something that you didn't anticipate which further diminishes your focus and concentration. when your opponents pick-up on this, they will find unattended weak areas in your gameplan, and you will be open to attack.

up front, you must take charge and lead into the field with a hand as strong as AA. this opens up weak areas in your opponent's gameplan, while defending any areas of weakness in yours. when you betout decisively like that from first, you send out a radar blip that scours the field garnering vital info about where your opponents stand. when you bet they take cover, and don't drop in probes of their own. this benefits you greatly because from EP, if you allow your opponents an intelligence foothold, they will be able to use any info gained much more effectively than you will because they will be afforded the intellectual luxury of acting on their intelligence after you have acted on yours. if you allow them to compete in this area by checking, you will be guessing while they will be acting after the fact. you must bet to stop them from using the information provided by checking.

on the flop you must reraise for value and get the bets in there while you can. you cannot check to him on the turn because he will use that info against you. you must bet. yes, a bet also will provide him with info, but....it is much harder to use that info against you. he doesn't know whether you are bluffing or have the lead or think you have the lead, but you draw his attention onto these possibilities, and he isn't able to use the information you have provided him with as effectively as he otherwise would be able to if you just checked to him.

when you check, he doesn't have to attend to those issues. he can focus on the mathematics more readily, and carefully ponder whether or not he needs to improve. if he doesn't, then he bets, if he does, then he checks. it's that simple for him. but if you betout yourself, he is too busy catching the ball you've thrown to him to get real heavy into fine tuning his play, and you force him to play sub-optimally most of the time this way.

just remember poker, when you are in first position, your opponents behind you will be able to use information more effectively than you. with a made hand like yours, checking to them is only providing them with ammo that will be used against you.

[pokerhooker]

Hi elysium,

Thanks for the thoughtful and... heh... verbose reply. I'm 100% certain that not 3-betting preflop was a mistake, especially since I could not trap anybody between me and the pre-flop raiser.

With that said, having not yet revealed the strength of my hand, I didn't necessarily lose focus, but, rather, had to shift it onto the poster who raised my flop bet.

By his raise, I felt he was most likely protecting a naked Q. I considered 3-betting him and telling him I could beat his holding, and then leading the turn. This would have given him a chance to get away from the hand for just one more small bet.

However, as I previously admitted, I got greedy and instead wanted to trap him for a big bet instead with a turn check-raise. And, as is the case with many people who get check-raised, he would likely call it to see the river, and might even call down unimproved having reached the river.

This is a live 20-40 california game, which is characterized by aggression. With the pot heads-up, I assumed (incorrectly, obviously) that he would bet his pair on the turn. I was in equal parts a victim of being outplayed, being greedy, and being too tricky.

The result, as one might have guessed, is that I called the river raise and he tabled 52o. Not much of a hand to raise me on the flop with two people yet to act. I played bad, but even as the sight of him stacking my chips still burns in my mind, I'm not convinced he plays all that good /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

p.s. it's "interim"

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
Was it worth it to leave two people in for an extra BB? I guess that's the crux of my question.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my experience, when people limp, they wont fold for any amount of raises. Even if 1 guy folds, you still get the extra BB or more and the extra benefit of having 1 less opponent seeing a flop. You need to give these guys the opportunity to make a mistake by calling 3 or 4 bets preflop with dominated hands.