Top pair of sevens; flush draw

[AKQJ10]

OK, i'm going to try to get into the hand history thing by posting a few from a just-completed $6 Absolute in rough chronological order. Sorry for the format -- bisonbison can only handle ABS ring games.

Stage #146116547: Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $15 [ 2005-06-27 20:31:45 ]
Seat 1 - EP2 $1310 in chips
Seat 2 - EP3 $1465 in chips
Seat 3 - MP1 $825 in chips
Seat 4 - MP2 $1825 in chips
Seat 5 - CO $1205 in chips
Seat 6 - Button $2650 in chips
Seat 7 - SB $1320 in chips
Seat 8 - Hero $1460 in chips
Seat 9 - UTG $1440 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 6] ***
SB - Post small blind $15
Hero - Post big blind $25
Hero - Pocket [4h,7h]
UTG - Calls $25
EP2 - Folds
EP3 - Folds
MP1 - Calls $25
MP2 - Folds
CO - Calls $25
Button - Folds
SB - Calls $10
Hero - Checks
*** FLOP [7s,5h,2h] ***
SB - Checks
Hero - Bets $100
UTG - Folds
MP1 - Calls $100
CO - Folds
SB - Folds
*** TURN [7s,5h,2h,5c] ***
Hero - Bets $150
MP1 - Calls $150
*** RIVER [7s,5h,2h,5c,10s] ***
Hero - Bets $300
MP1 - Calls $300
*** SHOW DOWN *** in white
<font color="white">
Hero - Show cards [4h,7h]
MP1 - Lost mucks
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($1225)
Board [7s,5h,2h,5c,10s]
EP2 - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
EP3 - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
MP1 - HI: [Lost mucks]
MP2 - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
CO - Folded on the FLOP
Button - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
SB - Folded on the FLOP
Hero - Total ($1225) HI:($1225)Two pair, sevens and fives [4h,7h -
B:7s,P:7h,B:5h,B:5c,B:10s]
UTG - Folded on the FLOP

</font>

Comments please?

[AKQJ10]

hmmm... maybe I should just skip to the last hand I played....

[drapes]

Do you have a question?

I'm going to give you an answer anyhow.

I'm not allowed to bet on the flop with such a beatable top pair. And I'm especially not allowed to keep betting with just a flopped pair of 7s.

MY ANSWER IS: NO.

[AKQJ10]

Thanks for the reply. Good point about the question. Am I playing this too aggressively on the flop, turn, and river? (Which of course you answered.)

As for betting the sevens -- in my mind it was maybe 1/3 betting top pair and 2/3 semibluff on my flush draw, until the river where it was 2/3 bluff. I didn't really expect to win at showdown with a pair of 7s.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not allowed to bet on the flop with such a beatable top pair. And I'm especially not allowed to keep betting with just a flopped pair of 7s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask him again. When you have a flush draw to go with that pair, you at least need to checkraise /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When I don't CR this I play it this way.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

When I don't CR this I play it this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Including the river bet? The rest of it is fine with me, but the river bet seems rather large and I'm amazed that the OP managed to get called by a worse hand on the river.

[adanthar]

Last night, I had A6 in the BB, the flop was 654, I bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop and another 2/3 on the 5 turn and got two calls on both streets.

I checked the river and beat 62 soooted and 22. Especially with 1500 stacks, I think I'm betting next time.

[AKQJ10]

Good point about the check/raise. While I don't use the CR enough in passive games because of my fear of giving free cards, this is one case where I'm getting the free card. The only downside is also giving a free card to an overcard to my sevens if my flush doesn't come in.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Including the river bet? The rest of it is fine with me, but the river bet seems rather large and I'm amazed that the OP managed to get called by a worse hand on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was suprised too. Honestly I put him on some kind of busted draw, maybe a gutshot or higher flush. I thought I might have a better hand, but if so I didn't expect a call.

Should I have made a smaller bet, then? But then I'm losing fold equity from, say, a better seven or pocket 8s or 9s.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I might have a better hand, but if so I didn't expect a call. . . . But then I'm losing fold equity from, say, a better seven or pocket 8s or 9s.

[/ QUOTE ]

At a low buyin tournament, I think 8s or 9s are almost never going to get away on this river. There's not much reason to think you have a T or an overpair (some people will check JJ in the BB there when it gets to them, but not so much at low buyins.) The only hand to be scared of is trips, and since you led before those got there I think you won't be taken seriously on that front either. Better sevens may fold, that's pretty opponent dependent.

In a nutshell, I think against most opponents you'll have a hard time folding better hands and will get called extremely rarely with worse hands. So betting seems likely on balance to be a losing proposition. If you think your hand is probably best, I prefer check-calling in this spot; that way you can at least hope to get more money in from worse hands here more reliably.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
So betting seems likely on balance to be a losing proposition. If you think your hand is probably best, I prefer check-calling in this spot; that way you can at least hope to get more money in from worse hands here more reliably.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really sucks playing hands OOP, doesn't it? When I read the hand, I actually felt that the river bet was a bit of a blocking bet. The pot was 625 and OP bet 300. Seems reasonable since checking just encourages villain to bluff. I think that the 300 river bet makes the river easier to play (at least for me).

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
At a low buyin tournament, I think 8s or 9s are almost never going to get away on this river. There's not much reason to think you have a T or an overpair (some people will check JJ in the BB there when it gets to them, but not so much at low buyins.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. I rethought the value of fold equity after posting that, because you're right. I had no read on the player before this hand (after this hand I believed him to be a calling station!), and default behavior at this level of play is probably to at least call 1/2 pot with A7, 88, or 99.

It's good for me to go through the thought processes of more sophisticated players post mortem, to improve my knowledge for when I get to higher buyins. Nevertheless, my decisions should be made based on a realistic assessment of the competition.

I'm thinking check-calling (up to about 1/2 pot) is probably best.