Do pros dis like Hellmuth

[horne_dawg]

"With the board showing 9d-5s-3h, Phil Ivey bets $11,000. The only other player in the hand is Phil Hellmuth. Hellmuth takes more than a few minutes to think, before asking how much Ivey has left. Ivey places his chips in plain sight, but doesn't count them. "If he won't count them, someone else do it," says Hellmuth. The dealer begins counting Ivey's chips, but as he's about to finish, Doyle Brunson asks whether or not it's allowable to have an exact count done in pot-limit. Tournament Director Johnny Grooms rules that is not, but the count is already finished. Hellmuth then deliberates for another 2-3 minutes before Surinder Sunar calls for time. Johnny Grooms doesn't get very far in the count before Hellmuth reraises all-in. Hellmuth shows pocket Kings, while Ivey shows pocket Aces. The turn is the 5c and the river the 10h. Hellmuth doubles up Ivey and is left with only $35,000 in chips. Ivey's stack is rounding out near $100,000."

Why elsa would Ivey not count his chips, and why would Doyle complian about it. I am actully surprise more pros dont tell Phil where to go.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
"With the board showing 9d-5s-3h, Phil Ivey bets $11,000. The only other player in the hand is Phil Hellmuth. Hellmuth takes more than a few minutes to think, before asking how much Ivey has left. Ivey places his chips in plain sight, but doesn't count them. "If he won't count them, someone else do it," says Hellmuth. The dealer begins counting Ivey's chips, but as he's about to finish, Doyle Brunson asks whether or not it's allowable to have an exact count done in pot-limit. Tournament Director Johnny Grooms rules that is not, but the count is already finished. Hellmuth then deliberates for another 2-3 minutes before Surinder Sunar calls for time. Johnny Grooms doesn't get very far in the count before Hellmuth reraises all-in. Hellmuth shows pocket Kings, while Ivey shows pocket Aces. The turn is the 5c and the river the 10h. Hellmuth doubles up Ivey and is left with only $35,000 in chips. Ivey's stack is rounding out near $100,000."

Why elsa would Ivey not count his chips, and why would Doyle complian about it. I am actully surprise more pros dont tell Phil where to go.

[/ QUOTE ]becasue phil hellmuth is a loser lol

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

Why elsa would Ivey not count his chips, and why would Doyle complian about it. I am actully surprise more pros dont tell Phil where to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Hellmuth does play cheap little mind games when he thinks he can get an edge, like asking for chip counts and taking a long time to act while he moves his chips around in various size stacks. That stuff gets old, especially when it is obvious and repetitive.

2. The rule is that you have to have your chips where they can be seen, but you don't have to count them for anyone. Especially against noobs, good players will often ask for a count to see if the guy gives off a tell in handling his chips or in his verbal statement. Ivey, of course, is the last guy in the world to try that on, and he probably resented Hellmuth treating him like a noob.

3. Personal opinion: I think that guys like Doyle and Ivey and Lederer who act professionally at the table have little patience for guys like Hellmuth who don't. As I remember, in a recent post-game interview, Howard said something to the effect that Phil could use a little more maturity.

[Aceshigh7]

Surinder Sunar was out of line there. Judging from his behavior on the WPT event he won and then calling time on Phil when he himself wasn't even in the hand, he seems like a first class prick.

Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[TheMainEvent]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

With Phil its clear that he takes more time for reasons other than weighing a difficult descision. If he was doing this constantly and holding the table up I think he was completely justified in calling time.

[Paul Phillips]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a pretentious prick with more money than sense.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a pretentious prick with more money than sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

...who also harbors a bizarre personal vendetta against Phil Hellmuth?

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
"With the board showing 9d-5s-3h, Phil Ivey bets $11,000. The only other player in the hand is Phil Hellmuth. Hellmuth takes more than a few minutes to think, before asking how much Ivey has left. Ivey places his chips in plain sight, but doesn't count them. "If he won't count them, someone else do it," says Hellmuth. The dealer begins counting Ivey's chips, but as he's about to finish, Doyle Brunson asks whether or not it's allowable to have an exact count done in pot-limit. Tournament Director Johnny Grooms rules that is not, but the count is already finished. Hellmuth then deliberates for another 2-3 minutes before Surinder Sunar calls for time. Johnny Grooms doesn't get very far in the count before Hellmuth reraises all-in. Hellmuth shows pocket Kings, while Ivey shows pocket Aces. The turn is the 5c and the river the 10h. Hellmuth doubles up Ivey and is left with only $35,000 in chips. Ivey's stack is rounding out near $100,000."

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? Why weren't Ivey's aces good?

[Russ McGinley]

Hellmuth doubled Ivey up.

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Players routinely taking a long time to act is probably one of the most iritating behaviors you will incounter playing poker. (luckily this isn't a problem in limit) A 90 second rule would be nice, or some type of cumulative timer like chess.

Even more irritating would be sitting next to an obnoxious whining f&#khead.

[The Ocho]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Are you serious? Have you never sat there and waited for 5 minutes while some guy mulls needlessly over a routine fold/call?

[benneh]

funny. i read that wrong also and was about to ask the same thing.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth doubled Ivey up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I mentally reversed the "Ivey" and "and" in that sentence. (Hellmuth doubles up and Ivey is left with only . . . )

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paul I love you.

[TStoneMBD]

yes paul kicked ass there but i give the round to aceshigh7 for a sweet comeback.

[ed8383]

There should be a 2 minute time limit on all hands.

[Howard Treesong]

It all depends on the circumstances. There are plenty of players who call for time waaaaaay too often and do it as a way of getting under peoples' skin. I see no reason based on what you've said to criticize Surinder's actions. Time can be a critical factor in tournament poker, and I've known players to play slowly or call time to put pressure on short stacks. It's entirely reasonable to call time when someone has had all the opportunity he needs to make a decision.

I also think Phil I is on record as stating that when someone is staring him down, he'll do as little as possible. I believe his quote is, paraphrasing, "if someone asks me for a count, let the dealer do it." I see no reason to believe he was acting differently towards Phil H than he would have towards anyone.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
yes paul kicked ass there but i give the round to aceshigh7 for a sweet comeback.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
It all depends on the circumstances. There are plenty of players who call for time waaaaaay too often and do it as a way of getting under peoples' skin. I see no reason based on what you've said to criticize Surinder's actions. Time can be a critical factor in tournament poker, and I've known players to play slowly or call time to put pressure on short stacks. It's entirely reasonable to call time when someone has had all the opportunity he needs to make a decision.

I also think Phil I is on record as stating that when someone is staring him down, he'll do as little as possible. I believe his quote is, paraphrasing, "if someone asks me for a count, let the dealer do it." I see no reason to believe he was acting differently towards Phil H than he would have towards anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said Howard, but my problem is with Surinder calling for the clock. If Ivey wants to ask for the clock on Phil I think that is fine, I just don't think Surinder was right doing it. It's not like it was a routine decision Phil was mulling over either, it was an action hand that had major consequences for both Hellmuth & Ivey.

Anyways, thats my view on the matter.

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything you said Howard, but my problem is with Surinder calling for the clock. If Ivey wants to ask for the clock on Phil I think that is fine, I just don't think Surinder was right doing it. It's not like it was a routine decision Phil was mulling over either, it was an action hand that had major consequences for both Hellmuth & Ivey.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen third parties call for a clock many times. Sometimes, it's a personal issue or a tilt play, but most of the time, it's because of a perception that the blinds are going up and the player has had more than enough time to make a decision.

I've logged enough hours with Surinder to be reasonably comfortable that he didn't have any ill intent. IMO, of course.

Your return swipe on Paul has a slight flaw. Do you see why?

[Klepton]

[ QUOTE ]
Surinder Sunar was out of line there. Judging from his behavior on the WPT event he won and then calling time on Phil when he himself wasn't even in the hand, he seems like a first class prick.

Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is sickening. if someone waited 5 minutes and then pushed all-in, i'd tell them they just wasted 5 minutes.

hellmuth thought he had the best hand, he was just trying to get ivey to call. maybe i'm being results oriented, but i fuc[/i]king hate hellmuth

and to the OP, yes it looks like everyone hates hellmuth

[etizzle]

Because to have more sense than money, PP would have to have a LOT of sense. Any of us with as much money as PP would have 'more money than sense.'

Plus, its a little apples to oranges.

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a pretentious prick with more money than sense.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well said..

[TheCroShow]

[ QUOTE ]
funny. i read that wrong also and was about to ask the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol same here, original poster failed at basic english =p

[DonkeyChip]

Well, as you all know he's only folded Kings 4x (or is it 5 now?) in his whole life and every time the other guy had Aces. So you should understand if he takes some time. Besides, it's not like he's in a rush to win #10 anymore.

[wray]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a guy who has never played poker in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a pretentious prick with more money than sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I hate to have time called on me it needs to be allowed by all at the table IMHO.

I think time should only be called on someone who continually takes quite a bit of time to make his/her decisions. But why should it only be the people involved in the hand. If it is continually slowing the game anyone who wants should be able to chime in.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
yes paul kicked ass there but i give the round to aceshigh7 for a sweet comeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
Give me a break. The "you have a lot of money blah blah blah" burn is so old.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
Any of us with as much money as PP would have 'more money than sense.'


[/ QUOTE ]

How dare you malign Mr. Sklansy.

[el kang]

[ QUOTE ]
yes paul kicked ass there but i give the round to aceshigh7 for a sweet comeback.

[/ QUOTE ]

A comeback should make some sense and not just be an insult. The retort doesn't deserve a response and except for those guys (there are a lot of them from all over) who misread the AA vs KK hand, people should see that the insult can even be seen as a compliment.

I think Paul is right in calling him out as someone who hasn't played enough (tournament) poker. Paul's sense of etiquette may be a bit more stringent than most, but I'll bet $500 that more than half of the people at the table think Surinder's action was fine.

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes paul kicked ass there but i give the round to aceshigh7 for a sweet comeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
Give me a break. The "you have a lot of money blah blah blah" burn is so old.

[/ QUOTE ]


I believe anybody with alot of money and time on there hand can become a professional poker player.

If they play enough poker, and "pay" for their education through losses, you can become a good enough poker player, to consistantly take money from the weekend schlubs who only play occaisional.

Look at EVERY poker player who's ever reached a Final Table.. Almost 90% of them have a story of how they built there wealth in Real Estate, Investing, Running a Business, etc..

They are wealthy self-made people who had free time to learn how to play poker.

Other than being cagey enough to cash in on the Internet craze (He wasn't the only one, so go pop your head Paul).. Paul Phillips doesn't impress me one bit with his poker game.

A good poker player.. good enough to crack a couple final tables a year.. But If you took 2+2's 100 best non-professionals, and gave them an unlimited bankroll to play in every tournament all year long.. They will all crack into a final table here and there..

Anybody with a million dollars and the time and committment (aka Addiction) to learn the game, and has half a brain, is capable of become a player of that quality IMO.

Guys like Phil Ivey, who are capable of going past that "Good Player" into the "Phemon" Level, are the true heroes of the sport.

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Paul is right in calling him out as someone who hasn't played enough (tournament) poker. Paul's sense of etiquette may be a bit more stringent than most, but I'll bet $500 that more than half of the people at the table think Surinder's action was fine.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yesterday, Doyle Brunson put John Phan to a 7 minute decision in the same event. The entire table asked for a clock. I don't think Doyle opened his mouth.

[el kang]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Paul is right in calling him out as someone who hasn't played enough (tournament) poker. Paul's sense of etiquette may be a bit more stringent than most, but I'll bet $500 that more than half of the people at the table think Surinder's action was fine.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yesterday, Doyle Brunson put John Phan to a 7 minute decision in the same event. The entire table asked for a clock. I don't think Doyle opened his mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise my wager to $5K.

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]

I believe anybody with alot of money and time on there hand can become a professional poker player.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong. I've seen quite a number of players with plenty of time and plenty of money who remain stone suckers. One example: forty times the pot goes in to an A5KQ board when I hold JT. My opponent asks me for a deal, and I respond, why should I make a deal when I'm almost certainly a 3:1 favorite? Response? "Three to one? I don't know anything about that." This is a "pro" you'll recognize.

[ QUOTE ]
Look at EVERY poker player who's ever reached a Final Table.. Almost 90% of them have a story of how they built there wealth in Real Estate, Investing, Running a Business, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no.

[ QUOTE ]
They are wealthy self-made people who had free time to learn how to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No again. Have you ever been in a cardroom?

[ QUOTE ]
Other than being cagey enough to cash in on the Internet craze (He wasn't the only one, so go pop your head Paul).. Paul Phillips doesn't impress me one bit with his poker game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you might consider reading what Paul has written and trying to follow his thinking. Based on what you're writing here, you have little chance of doing so. Paul has a long history of writing and thinking about the game, and his understanding of it is clearly deep. If you don't think so, then you simply don't know what you're talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody with a million dollars and the time and committment (aka Addiction) to learn the game, and has half a brain, is capable of become a player of that quality IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of numerous counterexamples: rich guys who play quite a bit and continue to bleed money.

[ QUOTE ]
Guys like Phil Ivey, who are capable of going past that "Good Player" into the "Phemon" Level, are the true heroes of the sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

I for one aspire to the Phemon Level of Poker.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
A good poker player.. good enough to crack a couple final tables a year.. But If you took 2+2's 100 best non-professionals, and gave them an unlimited bankroll to play in every tournament all year long.. They will all crack into a final table here and there..


[/ QUOTE ]

PP plays a very limited tourney schedule, AFAIK.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A good poker player.. good enough to crack a couple final tables a year.. But If you took 2+2's 100 best non-professionals, and gave them an unlimited bankroll to play in every tournament all year long.. They will all crack into a final table here and there..


[/ QUOTE ]

PP plays a very limited tourney schedule, AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did anyone ever take Paul up on his cross-book offer against Helmuth over the series. Seems to me they would be giving him a pretty good beating right now.

[Scooterdoo]

I agree that if someone continually takes forever then it's fine for someone not in the hand to call time. However, when someone who never delays is taking a long time on a particular hand I think it's really bad sportsmanship for another player not in the hand to call time. It effects both the player taking the time and the other player too. I've had it happen to me on both sides and I don't like it. At a Bike tournament a drunk Sam Grizzle called time on a player who was contemplating calling my all-in. I had AK and really wanted the player to make his own decision (not sure if I wanted a call or not) -- he folded after the clock started. It really pissed me off because he didn't call time when other players were blatantly delaying, but this was an inexperienced older guy and I just felt it was unnecessary. On Saturday in the $2.5k pot limit I was taking some time on a difficult all-my-chips call decision. I was about to muck when a player not in the hand called time on me. I made it my business to wait for the floorman, and I let the clock just count me down until my hand was dead. I hadn't taken a long time on any decision at the table and felt it was unjustified to call the clock on me.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that if someone continually takes forever then it's fine for someone not in the hand to call time. However, when someone who never delays is taking a long time on a particular hand I think it's really bad sportsmanship for another player not in the hand to call time. It effects both the player taking the time and the other player too. I've had it happen to me on both sides and I don't like it. At a Bike tournament a drunk Sam Grizzle called time on a player who was contemplating calling my all-in. I had AK and really wanted the player to make his own decision (not sure if I wanted a call or not) -- he folded after the clock started. It really pissed me off because he didn't call time when other players were blatantly delaying, but this was an inexperienced older guy and I just felt it was unnecessary. On Saturday in the $2.5k pot limit I was taking some time on a difficult all-my-chips call decision. I was about to muck when a player not in the hand called time on me. I made it my business to wait for the floorman, and I let the clock just count me down until my hand was dead. I hadn't taken a long time on any decision at the table and felt it was unjustified to call the clock on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that generally you shouldn't call the clock on a person who hasn't been consistently delaying. But it soundsl like there are been far more than five minutes without play advancing in this hand...after five minutes with no decision from a player I say a person in the audience should be able to call for a clock.

--Zetack

[Howard Treesong]

A crossbook usually only involves events in which both players play. I don't know if Paul played in the event Phil cashed or the current event where Phil is likely to do so.

[Paul Phillips]

[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone ever take Paul up on his cross-book offer against Helmuth over the series. Seems to me they would be giving him a pretty good beating right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me it'd be $0-$0 since he hasn't cashed in any of the events I've played. But nice try, and the offer is still open.

[jcmack13]

Hellmuth thought for two minutes and then shoved with KINGS in OMAHA? Is this common in tourneys? Cardplayer doesn't say what his other two cards are so I don't know if he has any other draws, but just kings? That seems like the move of a hold'em specialist. What is his raise going to accomplish? He's not beating any legit hands that he's vulnerable to. He's only gonna get called by aces, a set, two pair, or a wrap. though, when I play Omaha, i play omaha 8/b cash games, so are hi-only tourneys a very different animal where this kings push is correct?

[drewjustdrew]

it's probably not a horrible play. in plo, high pocket pairs are usually played strongly.

[sekrah]

Hellmuth would destroy you Paul..

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]

Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. This was a tournament, so blinds are going up on a time schedule. Phil's "act" is costing the table hands at the lower blinds, which is a of great concern to the smaller stacks. It's even a concern to larger stacks who feel they can outplay their opponents.

Obviously Ivey couldn't invoke the clock, he really wanted Phil to call. So anyone else at the table was really within his rights in calling for the clock, esp. after the absurd amount of time Phil was taking. Phil didn't need all of that time to sell his "I'm weak" act.

In ring games, you could argue that calling time is "low class" because the blinds aren't rising. But even there, people are playing for entertainment and they want to see more hands. Taking five minutes for a decision at a limit game, for example, is ridiculous. People who call time without abusing it, are moving play along to the benefit of virtually everyone.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What! Are you mad, if someone is content to sit forever and not make a decision, someone has to keep the game moving.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I don't know Paul Phillips.

But I think the insult aceshigh was looking for was "more dollars than sense."

See there's a pun, a play on words. Sense, Cents - hah?

Sorry. Bad puns are my worst vice (gambling, drinking, smoking and sex are minor annoyances.)

Again, I know nothing about Paul Phillips, and don't mean this toward him. Just correcting his wording...

[roxtar]

[ QUOTE ]
Surinder Sunar was out of line there. Judging from his behavior on the WPT event he won and then calling time on Phil when he himself wasn't even in the hand, he seems like a first class prick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you talking about the WPT in France where he got heads up with fat drunken loudmouth Tony G? If so what did Surinder do wrong on that show?

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
it was an action hand that had major consequences for both Hellmuth & Ivey.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are missing a point. This is a tournament and all the players have a stake in the results of every given hand as it represents a shift in power, even if minor. Therefore, every player has the right to participate to a degree.

[Masquerade]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything you said Howard, but my problem is with Surinder calling for the clock. If Ivey wants to ask for the clock on Phil I think that is fine, I just don't think Surinder was right doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a tournament the clock is ticking and the blinds are rising. One guy taking 5 minutes or more on a single hand is seriously affecting everyone else at the table. Plus you dont know if there was any prior aggro. Maybe Hellmuth had done something similar to Surindar.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at EVERY poker player who's ever reached a Final Table.. Almost 90% of them have a story of how they built there wealth in Real Estate, Investing, Running a Business, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]
Good use of throwing around qualifiers you can't possibly back up. You even included a percentage, how mathematical of you!!

[ QUOTE ]
Paul Phillips doesn't impress me one bit with his poker game.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is clear you are a PP detractor, so pointing out his stats in major tournaments will only provoke some more bad logic. If you really want to understand what separates people like Paul from the rest of the pack:

1) Go look through the archives of Paul's Live Journal.
2) Read some of the poker analysis he has done.
3) Admit that you do not understand it at all.
4) Move on.

[WillMagic]

Wanna bet?

I'll keep it simple. For the main event (or for that matter any of the remaining preliminary events in which both participate,) I'll pay you 200 bucks every time that Hellmuth makes the final nine and another 200 if Hellmuth wins a bracelet. You pay me if Phillips makes a final table or wins.

Deal?

Will

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I believe anybody with alot of money and time on there hand can become a professional poker player.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong. I've seen quite a number of players with plenty of time and plenty of money who remain stone suckers. One example: forty times the pot goes in to an A5KQ board when I hold JT. My opponent asks me for a deal, and I respond, why should I make a deal when I'm almost certainly a 3:1 favorite? Response? "Three to one? I don't know anything about that." This is a "pro" you'll recognize.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, why should you being 3:1 be a reason to not take a deal? Was he offering you 50/50?

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys like Phil Ivey, who are capable of going past that "Good Player" into the "Phemon" Level, are the true heroes of the sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I read this correctly? Heroes? In poker? lol.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes paul kicked ass there but i give the round to aceshigh7 for a sweet comeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
Give me a break. The "you have a lot of money blah blah blah" burn is so old.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the fact that Paul is probably a better poker player...I guess attacking quantity of money is the way to go. Yeahh....

[NYCNative]

I was under the impression that you couldn't call time unless you were involved in the hand. Apparently a mistaken impression, but maybe at some games/rooms?

[drewjustdrew]

[ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that you couldn't call time unless you were involved in the hand. Apparently a mistaken impression, but maybe at some games/rooms?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you mistaking calling "time" with calling for a clock? Calling "time" would only be the person with the decision to make.

Otherwise, maybe you have a cash game rule. Like other posters have said, if the tourney clock is ticking and blinds are increasing, why shouldn't everyone be allowed to play?

[KenProspero]

[ QUOTE ]
Why elsa would Ivey not count his chips, and why would Doyle complian about it. I am actully surprise more pros dont tell Phil where to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, at the risk of being stupid (or, from having read the rest of the thread, revealing myself as someone who has never played poker in the real world /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Does anyone here really think that Hellmuth didn't know how many chips Ivey had? I'd be surprized if he didn't have an excellent idea (if not nearly exact) of the chip count of every player at the table before the hand started. And if he didn't, clearly he's able to do calculate the chips based on Ivey's stacks.

The whole description in the OP sounds like gamesmanship. Hellmuth takes a lot of time, asks for counts, etc. etc. etc. because he's trying to get a tell, or with a lesser player, throw him off his game. Ivey has long decided how he's going to react to this kind of stuff.

Both are professionals, both have their style. End of story, right?

[Miles Ahead]

Really? Hellmuth is of course an extremely dangerous opponent at the table who views the game against you as "war", and in war everything is fair game (those are Phil's words paraphrased, by the way).

So, why wouldn't you call the clock on Phil, especially if (1) he was taking a ton of time for purely tactical reasons (e.g., increasing pressure on the short stacks as some of the other posters have mentioned) and (2) you knew it might be the thing to send him over the edge?

[Smoothcall]

Phil H is known to waste time and like the limelight and drama. So my guess is people find it harder to decipher when he has a real decision or is being his usual annoying self. And there is nothing wrong with calling a clock.

[Smoothcall]

Phil I doesn't count his chips because he doesn't have to and doesn't want to give any reads. Doyle asks because thats the rule. Surrindar calls the clock because its in the rules and thinks Phil H is taking too long. Nobody did anything wrong in the hand including Phil H. All are standard. Just uusally don't see all 3 in the same hand.

True some may call for more rules against a Phil to get under his skin a bit because he usually gets under everybody else skin.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling time when you're not involved in the hand is a very low class thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not. You have just as much reason, as well as right, to get as many hands in as possible in a single round. If somebody is taking an abnormally large amount of time to make simple decisions, like the dorks on TV, you have the right to call time. You paid the buyin, it's your tourney, too.

[clutch]

I just saw this on TV and it provides a little insight to what happened between Ivey-Hellmuth-Brunson the other day.. I had forgotten all about it. Remember the ESPN World Series Tournament of Champions from last year? There's a rerun of it on right now.

There was just a hand where Ivey put in a raise and Hellmuth asks him to count the rest of his chips. Hellmuth is holding K4s or K4o and it's early in the tourney with 9 or 10 players left. Hellmuth obviously has no intention of even calling Ivey's raise but he asks him to count the rest of his chips? Then Doyle goes off a little about how long Phil H. takes to make every decision. He says something like, "I've never seen a man encounter so many tough decisions at a poker table. You ALWAYS have a tough decision to make, eh Phil?"

Obviously Phil I. and Doyle were both fed up with Hellmuth's antics already. Watching a replay of that hand and finding out that he was holding K4o when he asked Ivey to count his stack surely didn't sit well with either of them.