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PokerHorse
06-27-2005, 07:55 PM
About 5 or 6 months ago I posted a thread regarding David Sklansky's forward in which he stated that it is easy to make 50k playing 3-6 holdem on the internet.
I challenged that it was not easy, and I met with a very angry mob response, and a very short post from Mr Sklansky re-stating how easy it is.
There was a poster who posted his winning record playing 6 tables for 100k hands. It took him 4 months to reach that amount of hands, and I believe he had made 18k. It was very impressive, but it didnt change my attitude.
I realize that there are some people who are currently playing crazy amounts of tables and making money. That being said I believe they are the exception rather than the rule.
Ed Miller is possibly the best poker author out there right now. besides the math, he seems to have a natural
understanding of poker strategy and he communicates his thoughts very clearly. it's just that I disagree with how to go about making money on the internet.

After playing online for several months now, I think I can safely say that for example; you should not multi-table more than 2-3 games of 6 maxx, any level. you need to be
very aware of the players tendencies in this game. I know I'll hear from someone who is multi-tabling 24 games of 6maxx 5-10 and making six figures a month or some crazy figure, but 6maxx demands quick decisions, higher aggression, and features maniacs in about 30% of the games you'll play.It's simply too demanding to multi-table more than 3 successfully imo.
To make 4k a month at 3-6, you need to play roughly 44k hands, and make at least 1 1/2bb/100. To do this, you need to play every day 5 hours a day or 5 days a week 8 hours a day 4-tabling.
Can you sustain this pace? if so, then as David said, 50k is no problem.I dont think it's realistic.
A realistic pace would be to play slightly above 8 hours worth of hands at B&M.
If you play 400-500 hands a day online ,you are way ahead
of B&M games, and you can have a life. And I would keep that at 5 days a week.
Realistic earnings= 3-6 holdem 1200-1400 monthly.
This I believe is reality,.
Also if you want to watch a great 6maxx player, go to Ladbrokes and watch 22year old, "The Salmon", and other play 200-400 6maxx. very entertaining andinstructive.

If you want to get a realistic idea of what to expect from another source, then go to King Yao's Blog,(author of Weighing the Odds in Holdem) where he is currently developing a book on 6maxx internet play and is playing 50k hands of 6maxx at 10-20 15-30 levels and reporting back.
good luck

06-27-2005, 08:32 PM
I think if you're serious about long term profits, you have to balance B&M and online play. Good Luck knowing your online opponents' tendancies.( Can't hit what you can't see) Depends on the person and their stenghths; if you're psychic,go for it.But if you want to prove a point, I'll play anyone and win 50% of the pots online.Just fund the match & you'll be refunded. S.Spencersaspencer@adelphia.net

malorum
06-27-2005, 08:57 PM
1400-1500 USD per month for that many hours. Oh Boy! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif If that's what you expect then I'd find a more lucrative hobby/job.

PokerHorse
06-27-2005, 09:53 PM
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

dirty moose
06-28-2005, 03:26 AM
where can i find this article?

06-28-2005, 10:40 AM
PokerHorse wrote: [ QUOTE ]
Realistic earnings= 3-6 holdem 1200-1400 monthly.
This I believe is reality,.


[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't you forgetting rakeback and bonuses. You can easily make that much on rakeback and bonuses alone.

(I'm a newbie, my apologies it rakeback is a taboo topic)

PokerHorse
06-28-2005, 11:40 AM
I play at party and cant get rakeback, but I wouldnt put it into the equation as those things change.

PokerHorse
06-28-2005, 11:42 AM
king yaos is " weighingtheodds.blogspot.com

ptmusic
06-28-2005, 06:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I play at party and cant get rakeback, but I wouldnt put it into the equation as those things change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your original post and the actual difficulties of multitabling for a livable income.

But I think it's okay to include bonuses and rakebacks into the equation. Sure those things can change, but so can the whole dang internet poker thing! It could all be over in a few years, who is to say. In the meantime, take advantage of every opportunity, I say.

-ptmusic

malorum
06-29-2005, 09:37 AM
Lets make a coservative estimate if you don't mind playing full handed.
full handed 5/10 with say 0.7 BB per hour + a 25% rakeback should give you about 10 dollars per hour.
the above earn is not unrealistic for 6 tables.
For 75 hours month that gives you an expectation of 4500 USD.
If your prone to bouts of tiredness or tilt then fudge it down by as much as 30% and you still get an earn of over 3000 per month.

Its not trivial and you do need to be able to walk away from a 2000 USD losing streak as though nothing has happened.

To multitable 'effectively' means training your responses, not just studying. Also you need decent screenspace.

I think your right many people don't achieve these earnings but they are entirely feasible, and it requires dedication and drive rather than latent skill.

PokerHorse
06-29-2005, 01:41 PM
i totally agree that the potential to play so many hands is very compelling.
i just think that 5-10 would be the minimum size to play inorder to make 50k a year or more.
playing 6 tables for 3 hours a day seems tough to me, for for others it may be no big deal.
All types of theoretical formulas can be conceived to show profit potential.
my personal suggestion to players would be to start at the lower limits(before leaving your day job)and build your bankroll so you can play the 10-20, 15-30 online games.
The internet really affords the opportunity for someone to
play equal amounts to a B&M player without leaving your job.
There is no reason a person couldnt play for 6 months online before leaving their job, to determine if they can beat the games, and more,to see if they really enjoy this style of gaming. You can multi table three tables of 3-6 or 5-10 for 2 hours a day and be playing more hands than a full time B&M pro, so why not start safely??
good luck

handsome
06-29-2005, 03:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]

playing 6 tables for 3 hours a day seems tough to me, for for others it may be no big deal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. What applies to you does not apply to everyone else. YOU may not be able to play more than 3 tables of 6-max, but there are many 8-tabling it. YOU may not be making 50k a year from 3/6, but there are MANY making MORE.

Here's the math, assuming a 2bb/100 win rate (very realistic) and only 4 tables:
60 hands per hour 1-tabling
60*4 = 240 hands per hour 4-tabling
2bb/100 = 4.8bb/hour
4.8*6/hour = $28.80 per hour

Play 2000 hours a week (40 hours/week for 50 weeks) and that's a $57,600 income. Note that this is "only" 4-tabling and BEFORE rakeback and bonuses.

gergery
06-29-2005, 05:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think I can safely say that for example; you should not multi-table more than 2-3 games of 6 maxx

[/ QUOTE ]

You’re kidding, right?

It is easy and simple to make $50k a year playing $3-6.

Play 4 tables of $3-6, playing 6 hours per day 5 days per week, making 1.5BB/hr x 48 weeks a year, so 4x6x6x5x1.5x48 = $51.8k/year

30/hrs a week with a month’s vacation tossed in assuming only a 1.5BB win rate is certainly do-able for a winning player.

Just because you can’t play 3 tables shorthanded doesn’t mean other can’t. There are quite a few posters here who can play 6, 8 or even 12 tables effectively.

You’d be much better off trying to learn from those who can do it, rather than adamantly deny reality.

A_C_Slater
06-29-2005, 11:43 PM
I remember that thread. And I also remember Ed telling you that he never claimed it was "easy" but that it was "no big deal."

You have a problem with the semantics, brotha.

PokerHorse
06-30-2005, 10:44 PM
i know the math... i think 6 hours a day isnt realistic multi-tabling 4 tables. thats all. i know there are some who are doing it, and of course everyone who is is making money right?

PokerHorse
06-30-2005, 10:47 PM
the text says its no big deal and david said it was easy.
if you can play 5-8 hours a day 4-tables then, you are right, its no big deal. I think its very hard to maintain that type of pace, and also very un-neccesary.

PokerHorse
06-30-2005, 11:03 PM
Okay, dont believe me ,go to wherever you play online, look at the 3-6 games or 5-10 games. go down the lists and make notes of the players and see how many players are playing over 3 tables.
I play at Party where something like 30k players are playing everyday. is that a good enough sample size.
on a typical day i have found 4 or 5 players playing 3 tables, and as many as 12-15 playing 2 tables. i guess all those hotshots who are playing 6-8 tables all play somewhere else. Oh, but wait, ... when I read the posts they refer to party poker constantly. i guess they know when i am coming to the sight, which is at very different times of day, but they know, and they waIT TILL IM GONE AND THEN PLAY.. Come-on,..... very very very few are doing it and making money, wherever they are.

TimM
07-01-2005, 02:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i guess all those hotshots who are playing 6-8 tables all play somewhere else. Oh, but wait, ... when I read the posts they refer to party poker constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the fact that each Party skin only allows a player to open up to four tables might have something to do with the fact that you can never find anyone playing more than that. Obviously anyone playing 6-8 tables is using more than one screen name at a time.

I often play four full tables for six hours in one day. My goal is 30 hours a week, and I prefer to meet this by playing a little every day. A typical week would be 3 days for 6 hours and 4 days for 3 hours. If I have to take days off, I add more 6 hour days to make up for it.

My 6 hour days consist of 3 hours of play, about 3 hours of break time (usually be making and eating dinner, and watching a movie), followed by another 3 hours of play. This takes no more time than the typical commuting to and from work for an 8 hour shift.

PokerHorse
07-01-2005, 08:49 PM
do you feel the pace is no problem, and that you could play this way for a few years, or do you see it as temporary until you can move up?
Also how long have you been playing?

Alex/Mugaaz
07-02-2005, 01:22 AM
What do you mean it's not realistic? There are players here who play 40hrs a week - 52weeks a year.

Of course you can't make 50k+ working 3hrs a day / 15hrs a week. I'm sorry to be rude but this is so childish to expect. Poker is a job. It's not a vacation. There are plenty of people who play 8hrs a day. If you want to play 1/3 the hours you need to play 3x the stakes, it's that simple. Good luck in the 10/20.


P.S. If your point is you can't play your A+ game for 8hrs a day you're right. But you can certainly play your B+ game.

TimM
07-02-2005, 03:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
do you feel the pace is no problem, and that you could play this way for a few years, or do you see it as temporary until you can move up?
Also how long have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I started playing Dec 2003. It took me about two months to move out of the micro-limits and start playing multiple tables (3 until August 2004, 4 after that). I averaged 20 hours a week until January 2005, and I had a full time job at the time. I quit the job in early February. Everyone in the company was to receive a big pay cut, and I believed the company would not last much longer anyway, so I figured that was a good time to bail and give online poker a shot full time.

I have been playing 30 hours a week since then. So really I have 30 hours more a week to myself. Half of this went towards sleep, and that has been a great thing for me. I have never been a morning person, and I hate to stop whatever I am doing and go to sleep just because I have to be up at a certain time. I really only start to wake up when the sun starts to go down, for whatever reason. I felt like a total zombie all day every day at my job.

So now my 6 hours of play days are like this: Wake up at 2PM, shower, eat, whatever. Play 6PM-9PM. Eat, watch movie, whatever. Play 12AM-3AM. Go to sleep around 6AM. Unless I want to stay single for the rest of my life (and I don't), I probably can't keep these hours forever. Other than this, I don't see a problem with the pace, and I'm only doing days like this 12-15 days each month. The rest are much easier with only one 3 hour session per day, and I throw in a few days off each month too.

Maybe I won't wind up doing this for years, who knows. It's hard to have a real long term plan as I am still in the "moving up, bankroll building, discovering what's possible" phase. But for now my goal is to put away as much money as I can, and maybe eventually put it towards starting a business and/or investments.

MrEngenic
07-14-2005, 04:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Realistic earnings= 3-6 holdem 1200-1400 monthly.
This I believe is reality,.


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute poker has AT LEAST 6 reloads every month for a total of 1200 $. To clear that you need to play 1200 raked hands. If you 3 table 1/2 6 max you clear at the very least 33 raked hands an hour/table = 10 $ an hour in bonus. Rakeback is another 5 $ an hour for three tables, and 1.5 BB/h should be no problem making it 10+5+3*3 = 24 $/h playing 1/2 6 max on absolute as long as there are reloads.
If you play only when you have a bonus it takes around 120 hours to make 2400 =~ 4 weeks.

The Dude
07-15-2005, 02:19 AM
PokerHorse,

You mention needing to make 1.5 BB/100 in the short games, and that this is difficult playing more than 3 tables. I have 8-tabled the 5-10 6max for over 2.5 BB/100, and although I consider myself to be very good, I'm not a shorthanded expert.

Like Ed said, it may not be "easy," but it is "no big deal."

MicroBob
07-21-2005, 07:15 AM
someone should link to the original thread from a year ago that I believe was in the books/software forum.

p-horse is correct that lots of people jumped all over him.
I was one of those and it was a VERY long thread.
I remember LostWages was in that thread too I think.


As I recall, p-horse was insisting that you would have significantly higher variance as well because you were playing more tables (something like that anyway).


Lots of the top players around here do not read the magazine forum.
There are several who play 6-8 tables at a time without much problem. With the heads-up displays of your opponents stats that are now available it's even easier to do this.
I agree that not everyone can do this however.


I have been mostly playing 3/6 and 5/10 (full and 6-max) as my sole source of income since Apr, 2004.
Sometimes I'll throw in a tourney or two in there. I typically play anywhere from 4-6 tables.
As I type this post I'm playing just 2 tables of 6-max because that's all I feel like playing.


Still...the math of making $1k/wk playing 3/6 is relatively easy as was pointed out by me and several others in the original thread.

4 tables of 3/6 at roughly 1BB/hr = $25/hr.
40 hours of this is $1k/wk.

Or 5 tables of 3/6 at 1.2BB/hr = about $35/hr.
30 hours of this is $1050/wk


On the 3/6 6-max games on party one can get around 90 hands per hour so 2BB/hr on each table wouldn't be that super-human either even on multiple tables.
Throw in some rake-back in there and I would argue that for the dedicated 3/6 6-max milti-tabler it wouldn't be so impossible to push $2k/wk.


Just because p-horse can't do it he seems to think nobody can do it.
It's not for everyone.
But he is practically saying that those 2+2'ers who actually ARE making a living from the 3/6 and 5/10 games for MORE than 50k/yr couldn't possibly be that good and WILL fall.
This is not only ignorant but it's modestly insulting also.


No problem though....I'll just keep grinding out a living on the 3/6 and 5/10 games while continuing to improve my game and p-horse will continue to tell me that it's really not possible and that I'm just lucky.


FWIW - we've had several threads on 'how many hands to the pros play in a week' and there were SEVERAL who said that they had no problem playing 10k per week or more (and sustaining win-rates of 2BB/100).
I'm not quite as inspired and am more in the 5k-8k range typically which is just fine by me because I also have some more hands in tournaments where I have quite a bit of success too.

MicroBob
07-21-2005, 07:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I really only start to wake up when the sun starts to go down, for whatever reason. I felt like a total zombie all day every day at my job.

[/ QUOTE ]


Interesting.. I have always been exactly the same way.
day jobs killed me.
But when I did sports broadcasting obviously most of my premium work was in the evening.

PokerHorse
07-22-2005, 10:59 PM
You shouldnt be insulted micro bob. Having played for so many years in B&M games and seeing the players come and go, i find it interesting how many claim to be making money multitabling low limit holdem.
once again you and others bring up the math. For the last time, I'm not questioning the possibility of it. I'm questioning the ability of players and long term aspects of it.
While you and others are so cavilier about making 1500 a week playing 3-6 or whatever, king yao, who I trust and respect is currently playing 50k hands of 6 maxx etc multitabling 3-4 tables. He has written, first off, about how large the swings are, but also how difficult it is to play well for any long period of time. here is a guy who has written a book and has put himself out there and talks about the realities of playing this way.
I have been playing 3-6 just 2 tables at a time, for only about 25k hands. I'm at 25voip/15pr/1.83bb/100.6maxx games
My experience is constant streaks up and down. I realize that playing only 2 tables isnt the same as 5-6 so maybe my volitility is higher. yao feels the internet is 4 times as volitile as B&M.even multitabling.
So it's amazing to me that so many players are unable to play proffesionally because of the swings at B&M yet, at the same time so many internet players are claiming its no big deal, and they are making an easy 2k a week.
Of course there are players who are making money, and most of those are players who are in the high middle limits and
high limit (ie the salmon etc). these guys arent multitabling more than a couple games. Now that's more realistic. And no, I do believe you are making money bob, but i dont think there is more than a handful of you.
good luck

MicroBob
07-23-2005, 02:56 AM
a lot of the full-table multi-tablers play rock-tight and uncreative poker.

VP-13, PFR-4 is not uncommon for these guys.
They still have swings....but obviously are not playing ideally.
But if they are just winning 1BB/100 on 4-6 tables playing this way then they are better off than if they played only 2 tables of 2BB/100 because they are also getting rake-back.


However, it is also possible to play more serious poker on 6+ tables. I don't recommend it and definitely believe we are in the 'rare handful' category here. But guys like Schneids are excellent 10/20 6-max players even playing 8-tables at a time.
But that's too much for me to handle.


But handling 3-4 tables of 6-max isn't THAT unusual. Not everyone can do it obviously. And you won't get great reads some of the time (although you can get GT+ that displays all of your opponents stats right there on the screen so part of your 'reads' are already being made for you) but, again, 1.5BB/100 on 4 tables is obviously better than having good reads on just tables for a 2.5BB/100 win-rate (4 tables of 1.5BB = 6BB....where as 2 tables of 2.5 only = 5BB of course).


I think King Yao is terrific and am very much enjoying his book.
He is not saying anything significantly new though I don't think (although I haven't looked at his blog yet...just going off of what you are saying).
Everyone over in the HUSH forum here (lots of 6-max multi-tablers over there) will tell you that the bankroll swings can get pretty crazy.
But that doesn't mean it's unprofitable. It just means you have to be prepared for such swings.

Last night I was up 110BB's in about 40 minutes on 4 tables of 6-max.
By the end of the evening I was dead even...finishing with a -80BB downswing in my final hour or so.


In the first hour the highlight hand was having TT and getting caught in a PF raising war....then flopping top set and winning a huge pot that got capped a minimum of 3 ways on each round. Naturally my opponents had KK and AA.

In the last hour I had AA cracked 3 different times...flopped flushes running into rivered full-houses...and other similar nightmares.

It happens.



It's interesting because there are many on these forums (myself included) who wonder how a live B&M pro does it.
You either have to grind out a small hourly wage to stay relatively safe. Or you have to have a pretty nice bankroll to play pretty large....but it will still take you pretty darned long to make it to the long-run (since 2k-3k hands in a week would be a lot for a live player).
If internet-poker weren't around to allow me to crank out 7k-10k hands per week (I'm including my tourney hands in there) then I probably wouldn't want to try it as a live pro.

Whereas you are arguing how much more difficult it is to do it as an internet-multitabler as opposed to doing it live (at least at the low-stakes, multi-table grinding level).


Yes - you have the streaks and they can be pretty wacky. But you are cranking out SO many hands that you can get past a 10k hand downswing fairly quickly.
Whereas in live play a 10k hand streak of lousy luck will take several months to ride out.

PokerHorse
07-23-2005, 11:28 PM
Okay, I can live with your numbers. i believe you are correct that most players playing 4 plus tables have to be near the 1bb/100 or even slightly less. So they need to play at least 50k hands per month to say make 3k at 3-6. I believe this.
I appreciate totally what you are saying, now just for a second, ponder this. Someone who is playing very tight, very straight forward, etc., who doesnt make moves at the pot when it is small,(just one example), or is unable to take advantage of other situations, is probably playing close to breakeven poker , at best. This player is hoping that at all or most of the tables he/she is playing at, the players are making lots of mistakes to give him/her the edge.
Although I see lots of chasing, i also see lots of over aggressive playing. The chasing is of course great, but getting raised or re-raised by semi-maniacs etc., can be tough to deal with, especially while playing 4-6 tables.
very aggressive play is the great equalizer. In the live game i play, there is a very aggressive wealthy player who is a maniac of the highest order, and although everyone knows how he plays, and of course he is a long run loser, still i see him fairly regularly walk out with 100-150 big bet wins. Aggressive play, even if its incorrect can be a great equalizer in the short run.(or longer)
So the question remains, is there an edge, can you stay focused over time, etc.This is the crux of what ive been saying.
As far as the long run is concerned, it doesnt matter a bit unless you are sure you are a winning player who has a definate edge at the tables you are in. Otherwise you will longrun break even at best, or be a slight loser. It's just the reality of this game.
Bob, you probably have an edge, but just because someone plays profitable hands, it doesnt mean they will be pprofitable in the longrun, and this is something that players dont understand. aa, kk, qq, ak are going to give you a longrun profit pretty much all the time, but as you move down the ladder ,(and not very far, how you play hands that mathematically still show a edge- will determine your longrun earn, (i know you know this).Its doubtful that most multitablers play well enough without tilt etc to make it.With the big swings that can happen online, i believe it is easy to believe at certain times that you are a winning player when in reality you arent. I know a live player who has been winning for over three years, yet I know without a doubt that he is a losing player.
I appreciate your comments by the way as i enjoy the disscussion(debate?0) Bye the way, who is schneids??
good luck

MicroBob
07-23-2005, 11:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i believe you are correct that most players playing 4 plus tables have to be near the 1bb/100 or even slightly less.

[/ QUOTE ]


i did not say this. I was just using the numbers as an example.

Most people playing 4-tables anywhere from 3/6 to 15/30 are likely pushing 2BB/100.
If they focused on just 1 or 2 tables and really tried hard on their player-reads than they might be closer to 2.5BB/100.

I usually am somewhere betwen 3-5 tables mixing 6-max ring with whatever tourneys I might be in the mood for.
I am around 1.5BB/100 on my ring-games.
Many of the multi-tablers in the SS and HUSH forums are better than me.


If you are making less than 1BB/100 then i would speculate that you would be better off playing fewer tables or stepping down in limits....but it's close.

But don't misunderstand my previous post to speculate that most multi-tablers make less than 1BB/100. The winning players around here definitely do better than that and it's pretty much been agreed upon that 1.5BB/100 to 2BB/100 is a very realistic win-rate for multi-tablers at many limits (of course....there are plenty of sucky players out there who are just losing players too).
The reason why it's agreed upon to be so realistic is that so many people are doing it.

The burn-out factor is a different issue entirely and obviously depends on one's make-up.
The younger players out there who grew up on video-games definitely have an advantage...because multi-tabling really just feels like a pretty goofy video-game just processing the info and acting on each hand as quickly as you can.

I'm 34 which is pretty old for these forums....but even I qualify in this 'video-game generation' as I grew up playing a ton of Atari games and the like.
Many a day I spent as a 12-year-old playing Kaboom or Frogger or Joust or whatever video-game was our favorite to play at the time.

MicroBob
07-24-2005, 12:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Its doubtful that most multitablers play well enough without tilt etc to make it.

[/ QUOTE ]



This is true.
Most multi-tablers...just like most poker-players in general...are pretty sucky.


But if you are capable of multi-tabling....and you are capable of playing a winning game...then it's not hard to play pretty decently on multiple tables.

There have been many hand-histories posted in the strategy forums here where someone will say 'I was multi-tabling so I had no reads other than the p-tracker stats on each of my opponents' (or not much of a read at all if there were no stats on the guy).
Still, you can pretty much determine whether a C/R was appropriate at such-and-such point and what-not.



I get the impression that you might a bit older than the kids doing it and you just don't see how one could possibly win 2BB/100 or more at 4-6 tables.
Many long-time B&M pro's who are very used to that game are the same way.

It's a new generation.
People have different talents and abilities.
Some people can play 400 or more hands an hour (95 hands per hour is not uncommon on a 6-max table...and with 4 tables that means you get more hands online in 1 hour than you are likely to get in an entire DAY of live play).


Not everyone can do it....but not everyone can play decent poker even on one table.
There are some of us....and it's a higher number than you seem to think....that can play 1.5k - 2k hands per day and consistently win and keep winning.

You seem somewhat open-minded to the 'possibilities'.

If I could....I would have you sit next to me while I 4-5 table the 6-max games for a few hours and show you that it's no big deal.
I would be able to talk to you about what I'm doing while also watching TV and/or sutfing 2+2.

I'm not THAT hyper-ADD-ish either. It's just multi-tasking and general busyness. I'm playing 3 tables as I type this. It's no big deal.

Keith Fellmy
07-24-2005, 12:29 AM
the math is wrong on this: for 1200 in bonuses you need 12000 raked hands of at least 25 cents.

PokerHorse
07-24-2005, 12:47 AM
lol okay, your right about the new generation. i view it as gamers who have switched from video games to poker in some circumstances. And that might give some an edge.
just out of curiosity what level do you play at 3-6 or above?

MicroBob
07-24-2005, 03:54 AM
i'm pretty much 3/6 and 5/10 these days.

i have taken some shots with my winnings at 10/20 and 15/30. Have taken some hits occasionally...and other times just aren't caring too much for the swings. I have the bankroll to cover it but I want a larger bankroll for greater comfortability.
January was a VERY bad month for me at 15/30. 200BB's later I decided to grind it out more on the lower limits. It wasn't all due to just being on a bad downswing though. I don't think the quality of my play was where I would have liked it to be.
Yes....it obviously does take some concentration, and better than average play, to succeed on 4 tables of 15/30 online.
I've heard that the party 15/30 games aren't as good anymore now that they have the 30/60 games...but I haven't checked this out myself.


I also play a variety of tournaments including a few satellites for major events (playing more of these satellites lately).
This isn't the income that i 'count' on per-se...but I am profitable in the tournaments I play in also.

banditdad
07-24-2005, 04:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ]

No that's not good.

DCWGaming
07-24-2005, 04:49 PM
You can add me to your "exception to the rule" list... Perhaps you should rename it, because there are a whole lot of people doing it. Those of us who play regularly know.

I am still fairly new to it, but over 3 months and well over 200k hands, I think the variance has pretty well evened out and it can be assumed that the results will remain constant.

3 months in a row, I made between 5 and 6k a month.
March - 84 hours played - 5682$ profit (~2400$ rakeback+bonus)
April - 88 hours played - 5440$ profit (~3000$ rakeback+bonus)
May - 55 hours played - 5192$ profit (~3200$ rakeback+bonus)
In may i played as a prop and that resulted in alot less hours, but alot more bonus.
My win rate has been a steady 1BB/100 and I would play 12 tables of 3/6 fullhanded. The goal was 6 hours a night 5 nights a week, but as you can see by my hours I slacked alot. I would have played 16 tables if i had room for a 4th monitor.

Other issues kicked in late may which caused me to take a month long vacation, but since then I've come back. Now that party has introduced the large number of 3/6 6max tables, I'm getting ajusted to those. My sample size isnt near big enough, but i'm sure that I am winning and i am getting bored of 4 tabling. 8 tables of 6max would result in 800ish hands an hour, as opposed to the 750/hr i got from 12tabling fullhanded.


You really need to take bonuses and rakeback into account in your calculations. 8 tables of 3/6 6max, if you break even during play, results in about 35$ an hour from rakeback alone.

If you only pick the cream of the crop when it comes to bonuses (the party skins, some of the cryptos, etc), you're looking at an extra 600$ a month minimum.

If you prop at a site with flexible rules (doesnt make you leave full tables...there are a couple of them out there) you are recieving 110% rakeback instead of 25%. This results in 10+$ per hour per 3/6 table you play.


No, it is not difficult to make a living playing low limit hold'em. Anybody who knows how to use the resources available to them (bonuses and rakeback) can make plenty of money.

And as for you not factoring rakeback in...that just shows that you dont know what you're doing. "I wouldnt put it into the equation because those things change"???? Not playing with rakeback is like handing away 3$ every hour for every table you play. This could result in 1000$ lost every month just because you didnt want to change party skins. And i have no idea why someone wouldnt take advantage of the abundance of reload bonuses that are thrown at you every week.


From my time at 12 3/6 tables I saw a whole lot of familliar faces. Id say at least 15-20 others were doing the same thing that I was. And that is only during the hours that I played.

Just because you cant jump on the bandwagon, doesn't mean there is no bandwagon.

Shoe
07-25-2005, 01:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ]
No that's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

4k a month is an above average salary. Maybe it is less than you are accustomed to, but I would consider anything above average to be good in the general sense of the word. Especially when you can make an above average salary playing low limit poker.

banditdad
07-25-2005, 01:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ]
No that's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]
4k a month is an above average salary. Maybe it is less than you are accustomed to, but I would consider anything above average to be good in the general sense of the word. Especially when you can make an above average salary playing low limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Above average if you work at Walmart. With all the college kids on 2+2 I'd hope your sights were set a little higher than 4K a month. My son just graduated college with a degree in theater and was offered a 24K a year starting salary for part time work while he builds his resume.

BTW, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for job promotion playing poker unless you are in the top tier. Not to mention lack of benefits.

banditdad
07-25-2005, 01:50 AM
I think that what pokerhorse is forgetting is that there are NO losing players on 2+2, ever. Only winners. Always. So that negates his whole theory.

07-25-2005, 03:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ]
No that's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]
4k a month is an above average salary. Maybe it is less than you are accustomed to, but I would consider anything above average to be good in the general sense of the word. Especially when you can make an above average salary playing low limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Above average if you work at Walmart. With all the college kids on 2+2 I'd hope your sights were set a little higher than 4K a month. My son just graduated college with a degree in theater and was offered a 24K a year starting salary for part time work while he builds his resume.

BTW, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for job promotion playing poker unless you are in the top tier. Not to mention lack of benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

And don't forget to take off about 25% in taxes. So now he's down to $3K/M. What's his rent, grocery, utility, car payments, etc, bills? Maybe $2K/M? More if he's living in LA, SF, NY or another big city. Now he's down to 1K/M profit. So he's making a profit of 12K per year and ruining his eyes staring into his PC screen :-)

I'm sure there are a bunch of 21-26 yer olds doing just this. That's OK though. While they sit and waste away at their PC's I'm out there at the B&M playing 100NL and going home with the cocktail waitresses and Pan9 losers (cute asian babes with tight bods and willing attitudes) each night. If you don't even get to enjoy the perks of being a poker player then what's the point?

mungpo
07-25-2005, 05:07 AM
I hope some day I will be able to play the 100NL.

07-25-2005, 08:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I hope some day I will be able to play the 100NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not as expensive as some might think. The blinds are only 2/3. The buy in is $100 and you can rebuy for $150 if you bust out. It's a great game to make money becuase the pots can get so big. The other night I left with $1400 after only buying in for $100 about 7 hours earlier.

If you happen to time it right you can sit down at a new game where everyone buys in for $100 so you're not up against big stacks. After a few hours you can have a big stack and then when someone buys in you can push them around.

TimM
07-25-2005, 08:01 PM
Answering several different posts at once...

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for job promotion playing poker unless you are in the top tier. Not to mention lack of benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pay for my benefits. It's an expense just like any other. And some expenses are lower because I work from home.

How does a poker player get a promotion? By continually working on his game, to increase his win rate, and to move up in limits.

[ QUOTE ]
And don't forget to take off about 25% in taxes. So now he's down to $3K/M. What's his rent, grocery, utility, car payments, etc, bills? Maybe $2K/M? More if he's living in LA, SF, NY or another big city. Now he's down to 1K/M profit. So he's making a profit of 12K per year

[/ QUOTE ]

Last I heard, people with good paying jobs:

- paid taxes
- had rent, grocery, utility, and/or car payment bills
- Sometimes lived in or near large cities
- Did not look only at what they made after living expenses as "profit"

[ QUOTE ]
and ruining his eyes staring into his PC screen :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why we get big LCD screens. Plus any decent job I would get would involve staring at a computer screen anyway (probably not an LCD).

Anyway, I'm not sure what the point of all this discussion is.

If you:

- can't beat the game for enough to live on
- don't like the lifestyle
- don't have the discipline
- are still a student
- have a good job
- have a family

Don't quit to become a poker pro.

But don't say that it can't be done, or that it is exceptionally hard, because there are a lot of us doing it and we know that's not the case.

Shoe
07-25-2005, 09:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ]
No that's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]
4k a month is an above average salary. Maybe it is less than you are accustomed to, but I would consider anything above average to be good in the general sense of the word. Especially when you can make an above average salary playing low limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Above average if you work at Walmart. With all the college kids on 2+2 I'd hope your sights were set a little higher than 4K a month. My son just graduated college with a degree in theater and was offered a 24K a year starting salary for part time work while he builds his resume.

BTW, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for job promotion playing poker unless you are in the top tier. Not to mention lack of benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. 4k a month is 48k a year. That is well above what the average american makes in a year, and twice as much as your son who just graduate college. And no offense, but with a degree in theater your son will be lucky to ever make more than 48k a year. (I could be wrong in this, maybe theatre is bigger in your area - but I have recently graduated from college, and all of my friends that have a degree in theatre or anything similar, have yet to find a job related to their degree -- the jobs are hard to come by and don't seem to pay a lot, however I am not saying that is bad, if it makes you happy that is the most important thing -- something that most people cannot say about their office jobs).

I agree with you, in almost every case, it is better to work than play poker (as most people do not have what it takes, not matter what it sounds like reading the posts on this site). All that I'm saying is that if you are making 4k a month (48k a year), then you are making an above average income. If you do that playing poker great, no you aren't getting any benefits, so 48k a year playing poker would probably be the equivalent of around a 38k - 42k a year job with benefits.

Benefits sound great, but you can also provide for your benefits if you are making enough (i,e, invest the same percent of your money as you would put into 401k, plus what the company would have matched, etc...).

Other than health insurance (which can be anywhere from cheap if you are young and single (I am paying less than $100 a month for health and dental on my own -- less than I had to pay at my last employer where they matched half of it) - to expensive if you a family or prior medical conditions, and 401k, there really aren't many other benefits that are worth a significant of money that you get working a full time job.

As far as job promotion goes playing poker -- you are always going to be doing the same thing. However, you can get "promoted" by improving your game and increasing your bankroll enough to beat the next level. This in its own sense is your promotion, you now make more money (if your good enough). The people making 48k a year playing $3/$6 are surely good enough to make more at a higher limit if they truely wish to apply themselves. Is this type of job promotion fulfulling? For some yes, for others no. If you would get burnt out doing this, a full time job would definitely be the better choice for you.

ghostface
07-25-2005, 09:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Play 2000 hours a week

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key to becoming an online poker pro.

banditdad
07-25-2005, 10:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for aprox 75 hours a month you think thats bad at 3-6? ok
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ]
No that's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]
4k a month is an above average salary. Maybe it is less than you are accustomed to, but I would consider anything above average to be good in the general sense of the word. Especially when you can make an above average salary playing low limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Above average if you work at Walmart. With all the college kids on 2+2 I'd hope your sights were set a little higher than 4K a month. My son just graduated college with a degree in theater and was offered a 24K a year starting salary for part time work while he builds his resume.

BTW, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for job promotion playing poker unless you are in the top tier. Not to mention lack of benefits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. 4k a month is 48k a year. That is well above what the average american makes in a year, and twice as much as your son who just graduate college. And no offense, but with a degree in theater your son will be lucky to ever make more than 48k a year. (I could be wrong in this, maybe theatre is bigger in your area - but I have recently graduated from college, and all of my friends that have a degree in theatre or anything similar, have yet to find a job related to their degree -- the jobs are hard to come by and don't seem to pay a lot, however I am not saying that is bad, if it makes you happy that is the most important thing -- something that most people cannot say about their office jobs).

I agree with you, in almost every case, it is better to work than play poker (as most people do not have what it takes, not matter what it sounds like reading the posts on this site). All that I'm saying is that if you are making 4k a month (48k a year), then you are making an above average income. If you do that playing poker great, no you aren't getting any benefits, so 48k a year playing poker would probably be the equivalent of around a 38k - 42k a year job with benefits.

Benefits sound great, but you can also provide for your benefits if you are making enough (i,e, invest the same percent of your money as you would put into 401k, plus what the company would have matched, etc...).

Other than health insurance (which can be anywhere from cheap if you are young and single (I am paying less than $100 a month for health and dental on my own -- less than I had to pay at my last employer where they matched half of it) - to expensive if you a family or prior medical conditions, and 401k, there really aren't many other benefits that are worth a significant of money that you get working a full time job.

As far as job promotion goes playing poker -- you are always going to be doing the same thing. However, you can get "promoted" by improving your game and increasing your bankroll enough to beat the next level. This in its own sense is your promotion, you now make more money (if your good enough). The people making 48k a year playing $3/$6 are surely good enough to make more at a higher limit if they truely wish to apply themselves. Is this type of job promotion fulfulling? For some yes, for others no. If you would get burnt out doing this, a full time job would definitely be the better choice for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time out. I'm not saying you can't do it or shouldn't do it. Hey if your dream or passion or desire is to play poker for a living go for it. The original question was: [ QUOTE ]
you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me

[/ QUOTE ] And I told him: No I don't think that's good.

As to my son, you are 100% correct. $24K per year plus benefits is a far cry from $48K a year, but it gives him the time and BR to persue his dream. Who knows, 10 years from now he may decide the trying to get into the Industry is a waste of time and take up poker as a living.

07-25-2005, 10:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't quit to become a poker pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't try and equate being a full time internet poker player with being a poker pro. Just becuase some of you can multitask and play a bunch of games at once and make a living out of it doesn't mean that you are truly a professional poker player. You are more like a professional game player, using technology to help you maximize your game. It's only when you can come to a B&M casino, sit down with your money and play face to face and make a living at it that you are truly a professional poker player.

In a short while you'll all be playing against online bots who will have no problems matching your 6 - 10 table at a time play and who will never get tired. Those of us who play in the real world will never have to suffer the indignities that you will soon be facing.

Shoe
07-25-2005, 11:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Time out. I'm not saying you can't do it or shouldn't do it. Hey if your dream or passion or desire is to play poker for a living go for it. The original question was:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you need to play 150 hours to make 4k. is that good? Ypu tell me


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I told him: No I don't think that's good.

As to my son, you are 100% correct. $24K per year plus benefits is a far cry from $48K a year, but it gives him the time and BR to persue his dream. Who knows, 10 years from now he may decide the trying to get into the Industry is a waste of time and take up poker as a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken, and just to make sure we are clear -- I was not trying to take a shot at you or your son. I hope the theater career works out. I took a job in computers and although it pays well (in my standards), there are definitely other jobs out there that I would find much more enjoyable. Who will be happier later in life? Probably your son.

I guess we just disagree on what "good" is. 150 hours to make 4k is about 26.67 per hour. I think that is good (but I am still young at and early in my "career." For you, that might be chump change. We are obviously at different points in our careers and have different mindsets when it comes to money.

TimM
07-25-2005, 11:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't try and equate being a full time internet poker player with being a poker pro. Just becuase some of you can multitask and play a bunch of games at once and make a living out of it doesn't mean that you are truly a professional poker player. You are more like a professional game player, using technology to help you maximize your game. It's only when you can come to a B&M casino, sit down with your money and play face to face and make a living at it that you are truly a professional poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. The game I play is poker. I don't live close enough to any B&M casinos to try this anyway. And even if I did, I probably would find it too boring. Also, maybe I'm not good enough to win enough to live on, with the increased rake, tips, and other costs. Certainly I'd have to be willing to withstand a greater period of lower income while working my way up the limits, just to find out whether I'm good enough or not. I'd rather make $40-$50/hr at low limit games without leaving the house, and with plenty of room to move up from there.

[ QUOTE ]
In a short while you'll all be playing against online bots who will have no problems matching your 6 - 10 table at a time play and who will never get tired. Those of us who play in the real world will never have to suffer the indignities that you will soon be facing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course if the games get bad for whatever reason, most of us will have to do something else. I guess this is true for anyone whose chosen field could fall under economic difficulties. I'm not ready to worry about the bot doomsday scenario just yet though.

MicroBob
07-26-2005, 08:30 AM
what a ridiculous post that guy had.


I file my taxes as a 'professional gambler'.

Poker (95% of it online) is my sole source of income.
It is my 'profession'.


Some 'pro' players travel around and hit all the big tourneys on the WPT, etc.
Even if they are getting staked or are deep in debt you might still consider them a pro because they are playing all the big, live tourneys.

Well....I play poker from home...and i make more than they do (that is, I'm not in debt).


I've played some live poker too..but this is just recreational mostly .
Because I can get in about 10x more hands per hour at home (Plus, I don't have to tip and the rake is better) it is obviously FAR more profitable to play online.



Your claim that I'm not a 'pro' even though online-poker is idiotic. my 'profession' or 'sole source of income' is poker.
It's my choice to not regularly make the 40 minute drive to the nearest poker-room.
It's my choice to play where I can make more money.

07-26-2005, 09:07 AM
Where you've all mentioned playing 3/6 and 5/10 you mean NL right???

Sniper
07-26-2005, 10:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't try and equate being a full time internet poker player with being a poker pro. Just becuase some of you can multitask and play a bunch of games at once and make a living out of it doesn't mean that you are truly a professional poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will very humbly suggest that anyone that can successfully be profitable 12-tabling 6-max games on the internet playing 1200 hands/hr is far more of a pro than someone sitting in a B&M playing 40 hands/hr.

TimM
07-26-2005, 04:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Where you've all mentioned playing 3/6 and 5/10 you mean NL right???

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we mean limit.

Lets say you've got a B&M 5/10 limit player making 1BB/hr - $10/hr.

Now let him play 4 tables online. You get twice as many hands per hour per table, so that's 8 times as much, so theoretically he can make $80/hr. In reality he will lose some of his edge playing 4 tables. But he will gain about $2 per raked pot won in reduced rake and no tip, and about $12.50/hr in rakeback. This all together could add about $30/hr to his win rate, but let's call it a wash because of his reduced edge. Even if you're only half as good as this guy, you can still make a decent hourly rate at these games.

07-26-2005, 05:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't try and equate being a full time internet poker player with being a poker pro. Just becuase some of you can multitask and play a bunch of games at once and make a living out of it doesn't mean that you are truly a professional poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will very humbly suggest that anyone that can successfully be profitable 12-tabling 6-max games on the internet playing 1200 hands/hr is far more of a pro than someone sitting in a B&M playing 40 hands/hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. In my mind all it makes you is a very good onlime gamer - no different than playing video games except you happen to be playing for money. Guys, living in your own closed off, computer controlled world is not healthy. You need to go out and see the sun and get laid. You need to come to a B&M and sit down at the table with real chips in your hand and be able to look at the rest of the table and size them up quickly. When the cocktail waitress with the tiny miniskirt comes over you need to be able to concentrate on your hand. You need to be able to see the anger in your opponents face after he's taken a bad beat from you and realize that he's on tilt so you can go for the kill. No, what you guys are doing is no different from shooting at aliens on your PS2. Just because a few of you make a living at it doesn't mean you can call yourselves professionals. Not until you've done it in the real world can you ever hope to claim that title.

Sniper
07-26-2005, 06:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, living in your own closed off, computer controlled world is not healthy. You need to go out and see the sun and get laid.

[/ QUOTE ]

An online multitabler can play more hands in a few hours 1 day/month than you can play sitting in a B&M all month. Its entirely possible that they are getting alot more sun than you are.

[ QUOTE ]
You need to come to a B&M and sit down at the table with real chips in your hand and be able to look at the rest of the table and size them up quickly.... You need to be able to see the anger in your opponents face after he's taken a bad beat from you and realize that he's on tilt so you can go for the kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a player able to size up the other players at the table without seeing their faces be even more of a pro.

[ QUOTE ]
When the cocktail waitress with the tiny miniskirt comes over you need to be able to concentrate on your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

When your naked girlfriend comes up to you at the computer and you click the sit out button... sounds better to me!

[ QUOTE ]
Not until you've done it in the real world can you ever hope to claim that title.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many WSOP winners that qualified online will it take before you are convinced that playing online is the real world /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The world has changed, embrace it!!

StellarWind
07-26-2005, 10:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't try and equate being a full time internet poker player with being a poker pro.

[/ QUOTE ]
Online poker and B&M poker are different games. So is golf. To say that someone who is making a big income playing online poker is not a pro is just silly. If you want to say that online poker is not poker ... well online poker is different. That doesn't make it better or worse.

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, living in your own closed off, computer controlled world is not healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]
This on the other hand is truly silly. Online poker is a much healthier lifestyle if you want it to be:

1. No driving. Driving is one of the most dangerous things we do.

2. Sensible food from my own kitchen versus overpriced and often unhealthy casino food.

3. No carrying around large amounts of money and possibly being attacked.

4. Plenty of free time to exercise.

5. Lots of time with wife and kids instead of chasing cocktail waitresses and socializing with drunks and compulsive gamblers.

6. Less stress due to losing streaks because the online player typically plays a lot more hands but at lower stakes.

7. No smoke.

8. Nice, properly-adjusted, ergonomic chair instead of whatever the poker room has available.

9. Less germs.

Actually this may be your point. Being a full-time B&M player is such an unhealthy lifestyle I'm not sure I could tolerate it for very long. So maybe they are the "real" pros /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

PokerHorse
07-26-2005, 10:26 PM
oh, i didnt realize that. thanks

PokerHorse
07-26-2005, 11:24 PM
i love it. The whole point of this post was that it is irresponsible to promote the idea that 50k is no big deal multi tabling 3-6.
here is what i know and what the publishers of this site know. that people will continually look for the "Holy Grail", of how win at poker because of the nature of the game and the swings. It doesnt matter how much"Discipline",
game-theory, statistical knowledge, etc etc you have.
95% of you dont have the mental ability to cope with the downside of this game.PERIOD! Do you buy every poker book that comes out, just so you dont miss something new as far as strategy is concerned? Are you constantly in search of the"Correct starting hands for various game types? Are you searching for that optimal strategy out of the blinds?
if so, you are not even close to being ready for a pro career at poker. Do you feel that in order to win a poker tourney, you cant do it without HOH volume 1 and 2 ?
Folks, its not that these are bad books, it's just that, that isnt what you ultimately need to handle this game.
Many of the top pros have major gambling problems, substance abuse problems, etc etc. But its this disregard for money that actually helps them succeed at the poker table.
if on the internet a 200-300 bb swing is common place, then a negative swing of 1200 big bets is very possible.
but when this happens, the player to whom this happens will be out of the game well before it gets to that point.
its just the nature of being human. many of the ring pros who have made it had enough money before they started.
So, if you still want to go pro or are playing for a living now and you are winning, please keep in mind that it wont always be this way. if you are considering this, make sure you have plenty of money, because even if you have the ability to return to a job, it will be difficult becuse you will keep telling yourself, "just one more try". also get a mentor, .. someone who is actually doing it to help. good l;uck to you all, you will need it

07-27-2005, 10:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
When your naked girlfriend comes up to you at the computer and you click the sit out button... sounds better to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's so funny. Don't try and be something you're not. Most of you online players are 250-500lbs of pasty skin flab. Sure, you may have a girlfriend - but she'll be the beached whale type so it doesn't really count. I'm really laughing pretty good at your weak attempts to sound like big shots.

07-27-2005, 10:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
1. No driving. Driving is one of the most dangerous things we do.

2. Sensible food from my own kitchen versus overpriced and often unhealthy casino food.

3. No carrying around large amounts of money and possibly being attacked.

4. Plenty of free time to exercise.

5. Lots of time with wife and kids instead of chasing cocktail waitresses and socializing with drunks and compulsive gamblers.

6. Less stress due to losing streaks because the online player typically plays a lot more hands but at lower stakes.

7. No smoke.

8. Nice, properly-adjusted, ergonomic chair instead of whatever the poker room has available.

9. Less germs.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. No driving. Driving is one of the most dangerous things we do.
--Only if you don't know how to drive.

2. Sensible food from my own kitchen versus overpriced and often unhealthy casino food.
--If that were really true except we all know it isn't. I know your pizza delivery bills are a lot more than my free casino food (free becuase I am a club member so every time I sit at my NL table for a few hours I earn enough points to eat free for days if I want to). And my menu choices are huge and contain many healthy items.

3. No carrying around large amounts of money and possibly being attacked.
--I just deposit it in my casino bank and take withdrawels when I want to. This is the big city. No one is going to try and jack me for a few thousand or if they do it would be hard since the freeway entrance is right around the block.

4. Plenty of free time to exercise.
--Ahhh hahahahahah. C'mon please? Don't even try and fool anyone with that line.

5. Lots of time with wife and kids instead of chasing cocktail waitresses and socializing with drunks and compulsive gamblers.
--IF you were actually married AND had actually fathered kids. We both know that the percentage of online players that have done this is very low. And I guess sitting at your computer all day or night playing for cash wouldn't be considered compulsive? Would it?

6. Less stress due to losing streaks because the online player typically plays a lot more hands but at lower stakes.
--Losing is losing. Playing more hands only means that when you do hit your losing streak it will be faster and deeper than a B&M player.

7. No smoke.
--Smoking in casino's here in LA has been illegal for years.

8. Nice, properly-adjusted, ergonomic chair instead of whatever the poker room has available.
--So you can sit in your chair for 8 - 10 hours? Even with an ergonomic chair that is unhealthy.

9. Less germs.
--OK. That's the only point I'll concede a little bit. Poker chips and cards do have germs. Most of us get around that by washing our hands every now and then. BTW, when was the last time you cleaned your keyboard and mouse? Has anyone but you used them? Have they sneezed? Have they picked their nose and then typed something?

07-27-2005, 10:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i love it. The whole point of this post was that it is irresponsible to promote the idea that 50k is no big deal multi tabling 3-6.
here is what i know and what the publishers of this site know. that people will continually look for the "Holy Grail", of how win at poker because of the nature of the game and the swings. It doesnt matter how much"Discipline",
game-theory, statistical knowledge, etc etc you have.
95% of you dont have the mental ability to cope with the downside of this game.PERIOD! Do you buy every poker book that comes out, just so you dont miss something new as far as strategy is concerned? Are you constantly in search of the"Correct starting hands for various game types? Are you searching for that optimal strategy out of the blinds?
if so, you are not even close to being ready for a pro career at poker. Do you feel that in order to win a poker tourney, you cant do it without HOH volume 1 and 2 ?
Folks, its not that these are bad books, it's just that, that isnt what you ultimately need to handle this game.
Many of the top pros have major gambling problems, substance abuse problems, etc etc. But its this disregard for money that actually helps them succeed at the poker table.
if on the internet a 200-300 bb swing is common place, then a negative swing of 1200 big bets is very possible.
but when this happens, the player to whom this happens will be out of the game well before it gets to that point.
its just the nature of being human. many of the ring pros who have made it had enough money before they started.
So, if you still want to go pro or are playing for a living now and you are winning, please keep in mind that it wont always be this way. if you are considering this, make sure you have plenty of money, because even if you have the ability to return to a job, it will be difficult becuse you will keep telling yourself, "just one more try". also get a mentor, .. someone who is actually doing it to help. good l;uck to you all, you will need it

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points. I agree with you that most of these online gamblers who have experienced some success for a few months or a year or so think that they will always be so succesfull and it's just not true. They are spending all their time online and a few of them are putting away 12-15k profit (after all living expenses) BUT they are not building any skills that will help them succeed in the real world. That profit they have can go very, very quick with the kinds of multitable hands some of them play. Most of them will also burn out in a few short years and even the ones with 30-45k in the bank then will see how fast this can be depleted with no other source of income.

If they try and take their profits and go pro in the B&M they will realize very quickly how unprepared they really are. Oh, there's no doubt that a few will have success but the vast majority will fail miserably - just like every other person who has gone pro over the years.

Meanwhile, those of us who play in B&M but are not doing it full-time as pros have real jobs where we can advance our careers, have real interactions with people, put away money in 401k's or have pension funds, etc. In short we have real lives and we get to enjoy our poker.

I also agree with you that the majority of poker pro's are cumplusive gamblers and many of the most well known names have had huge money swings - even more so in the past 2 years when the tournament money has become so huge.

DCWGaming
07-27-2005, 02:53 PM
Rotter you really need to start giving up some ground. You're sounding like a stubborn 16 year old who has stars in his eyes from watching too much WSOP on TV.

The fact of the matter is that if your primary source of income is poker, than you are a poker professional. Want proof? Here it is:

Dictionary.com definition of "professional"
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

Its safe to say that online players fall under this definition.


As for our lifestyle being unhealthy, I dont know why your view on us is so skewed. Though there are a bunch of fatties who are playing poker and not seeing the sun, as you've seen on TV, there are plenty of fit players who qualify and play regularly online.

As for my personal daily schedule -
9am - wake up
between 9 and 12 - swim for an hour, and then breakfast if im hungry
12 - lunch
2 to 6 - 4 hours of poker.
6 to 9 - Dinner, and relax and watch a movie or tv usually
9 to 1 - another 4 hours.
Sleep.

On the weekends ill go out and do whatever. Frisbee, drink, etc.

I'm very far from fat.


Most of us who have the discipline to put in the hours by ourselves without a boss also have the discipline to keep in good shape and maintain our social lives as well. Why you arent believing us baffles me.

And if you're going to compare the skill of online players to B+M pros, just look at how many online players have been winning major tournaments recently. I'm not saying that online players are better, but we obviously hold our own.

At least concede that there are a large number of us that are maintaining healthy lifestyles through online play.

07-27-2005, 03:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And if you're going to compare the skill of online players to B+M pros, just look at how many online players have been winning major tournaments recently. I'm not saying that online players are better, but we obviously hold our own.

At least concede that there are a large number of us that are maintaining healthy lifestyles through online play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I disagree. How many online players are there in the world or just here in the US? Millions? Hundreds of thousands? How many have won major tournaments recently? Less than a dozen? OK, let's say around 25 in the last year (I really have no idea of the actual number). See where I'm going with this? According to your odds online players should be filling up the money places in all major tournaments all the time but it isn't happening that way.

PokerHorse
07-27-2005, 03:36 PM
Gosh, someone who agrees with me, im not sure how to handle it. lol just kidding.
the way to get rich playing poker is to play it part time and invest your profits into index funds or other long term vehicles. if you make 8-12k a year playing poker you can become rich over the years by putting it into solid long term investments. But playing as a pro you will unlikely ever have excess money, as you will always need to pay the nut plus have a large playing bankroll.

PokerHorse
07-27-2005, 03:39 PM
ill bet you dont invest one cent of your profits towards retirement or investments. I wish you luck. If things chaNGE for you I hope youll come back to the forum and talk about those experiences as well. good luck

LImitPlayer
07-27-2005, 04:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
While they sit and waste away at their PC's I'm out there at the B&M playing 100NL

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL you stick to your 100nl poker career and I'll stick to my "online gaming career" And go ahead and get all the free food you want with your "club card"

At the end of the week my career will have made me more money than yours ever will.

After you've spent 40 hours a week in the casino actually playing poker plus add up all the time you've spent driving there, and waiting to get on a table you'll have played what 1600 hands tops for a 45-50 hour plus work week?

I'll continue to play 12 tables of online gaming for 650 hands an hour and laugh as it took me 3 hours to acomplish what it took you more than 40 hours to do.

And on top of that I won't have to pay for gas, put the miles on my car, I'll pay less rake and get 30% of my rake returned to me each month as a bonus.

At the end of the month I guarantee you that my bankroll will have grown a lot more than yours, and I'll have put in a lot less time than you.

But what do I know? You play 100NL (What a joke)

DCWGaming
07-27-2005, 06:15 PM
I didnt say internet players were better than B+M players. I said we hold our own.

The # of successful net pros is actually fairly low id imagine. A few thousand at most, id say.

Pit a B+M pro against a net pro in a bunch of heads up matches, the B+M pro will probably come out ahead. But that doesnt make the net pro not a pro. And it doesnt make him a pale fat degenerate either.

Sniper
07-28-2005, 12:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's so funny. Don't try and be something you're not. Most of you online players are 250-500lbs of pasty skin flab. Sure, you may have a girlfriend - but she'll be the beached whale type so it doesn't really count. I'm really laughing pretty good at your weak attempts to sound like big shots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it your experience that the WSOP ME looked like a Overeaters Annonymous meeting?

PokerHorse
07-28-2005, 02:25 PM
you play 12 tables eh? would you post your results since you must make at least a six figure income... right?
Tell us more educate us.

LImitPlayer
07-28-2005, 05:09 PM
That is correct, I 12 table the 2-4 and 3-6 limits.

I have been 12 tabling about 3 months now, before that I was 8 tabling for about a year, as far as results go if it was any of your business, i would tell you. But even a trained monkey (i'm not insulting you here) can figure out the money I am making from rakeback alone is fairly close to the 50K a year figure that you say is damn near impossible.

About 3 months ago I started a thread on how to add a 3rd monitor for the sole purpose of 12 tabling, I was having some technical issues and was getting the runaround from a lot of different places.

Look it up if you don't believe me, and if you do not believe me I do not care.

Rakeback= 675 hand per hour x 30% rakeback (.03-.04 per hand depending on 2-4 or 3-6) =$20.25-$27.00 per hour on rakeback alone.

DCWGaming
07-28-2005, 09:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ill bet you dont invest one cent of your profits towards retirement or investments. I wish you luck. If things chaNGE for you I hope youll come back to the forum and talk about those experiences as well. good luck

[/ QUOTE ]
That bet sure would be some -EV for you.

Retirement? No, i dont have a retirement account. I'm 20 and worried more about investments.

Yes I said investments. You couldnt be more wrong in your assumption about that.

I'm lucky enough to have a father who knows the real estate business and teaches me how to reinvest my money to make it work for me.

I currently own and rent out 2 houses and joint-own 2 apartment buildings amounting to 20 total units. All of this was accomplished through poker profits. So far these investments have actually lost me some money, but because of poker, it is a hit i can easily take. Seeing as the market is in the gutter right now, once it improves (and real estate always does) the plan is to accumulate 100 units, bundle them together, and sell them to a cali or NY investor. They go apeshit over midwest prices.


I dont understand your "if things change" comment. You're saying that if I go bust I should come back and tell you about it? Ok... I'll make sure I do that.

I also dont understand why you take my success and spin it in a negative way. Your little retirement/investments spin has very little to do with the original post and seems to just be an attempt to knock me down a few pegs because I'm doing better than you are.

I've posted about my experiences many times. I teach friends how to do the same thing I do. There really is no secret aside from having the discipline to put in the hours day after day.

Since my return to the professional scene, i've completed 12k hands (in 4 days) and made close to 3k including rakeback and prop pay. I have been running fairly well, but I'd still be happy with even half that return.
Instead of my 6 straight hours, I split it to 2 separate 4 hour sessions with a 3 hour gap. The 6 hour session would tire me out, these 4 hour sessions havent left me fatigued at all.

So I repeat:
Just because you cant jump on the bandwagon, doesnt mean there isn't one.

Justin A
07-28-2005, 11:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i love it. The whole point of this post was that it is irresponsible to promote the idea that 50k is no big deal multi tabling 3-6.
here is what i know and what the publishers of this site know. that people will continually look for the "Holy Grail", of how win at poker because of the nature of the game and the swings. It doesnt matter how much"Discipline",
game-theory, statistical knowledge, etc etc you have.
95% of you dont have the mental ability to cope with the downside of this game.PERIOD! Do you buy every poker book that comes out, just so you dont miss something new as far as strategy is concerned? Are you constantly in search of the"Correct starting hands for various game types? Are you searching for that optimal strategy out of the blinds?
if so, you are not even close to being ready for a pro career at poker. Do you feel that in order to win a poker tourney, you cant do it without HOH volume 1 and 2 ?
Folks, its not that these are bad books, it's just that, that isnt what you ultimately need to handle this game.
Many of the top pros have major gambling problems, substance abuse problems, etc etc. But its this disregard for money that actually helps them succeed at the poker table.
if on the internet a 200-300 bb swing is common place, then a negative swing of 1200 big bets is very possible.
but when this happens, the player to whom this happens will be out of the game well before it gets to that point.
its just the nature of being human. many of the ring pros who have made it had enough money before they started.
So, if you still want to go pro or are playing for a living now and you are winning, please keep in mind that it wont always be this way. if you are considering this, make sure you have plenty of money, because even if you have the ability to return to a job, it will be difficult becuse you will keep telling yourself, "just one more try". also get a mentor, .. someone who is actually doing it to help. good l;uck to you all, you will need it

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points. I agree with you that most of these online gamblers who have experienced some success for a few months or a year or so think that they will always be so succesfull and it's just not true. They are spending all their time online and a few of them are putting away 12-15k profit (after all living expenses) BUT they are not building any skills that will help them succeed in the real world. That profit they have can go very, very quick with the kinds of multitable hands some of them play. Most of them will also burn out in a few short years and even the ones with 30-45k in the bank then will see how fast this can be depleted with no other source of income.

If they try and take their profits and go pro in the B&M they will realize very quickly how unprepared they really are. Oh, there's no doubt that a few will have success but the vast majority will fail miserably - just like every other person who has gone pro over the years.

Meanwhile, those of us who play in B&M but are not doing it full-time as pros have real jobs where we can advance our careers, have real interactions with people, put away money in 401k's or have pension funds, etc. In short we have real lives and we get to enjoy our poker.

I also agree with you that the majority of poker pro's are cumplusive gamblers and many of the most well known names have had huge money swings - even more so in the past 2 years when the tournament money has become so huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel the need to demean those who have taken a different life path than you? It seems to me the type that would be rooting for others to fail is very jealous. And yes I know you didn't say you're rooting for anyone to fail, but lets be honest, it's very obvious that it's what you're hoping.

Cancuk
07-29-2005, 03:58 PM
link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1562605&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

you think 6-8 tables is unreasonable?

Sniper
07-29-2005, 05:44 PM
20 tables on 1 monitor certainly qualifies as extreme!

07-31-2005, 01:45 PM
Totally with you.
Have a Good Luck

jaym96822
08-10-2005, 03:26 PM
Both you and PokerHorse may want to visit the MTT or STT forums. I think you'd both learn a lot.

USGrant
08-11-2005, 08:46 AM
I haven't read past page 1, so forgive me if this is repetitive...but is 4K a month before taxes, health care, retirements savings, etc. a realistic salary? You'd get the same deal at Starbucks at not have to sweat a variance bomb every month.

08-11-2005, 04:49 PM
you just need a chip and a chair

Sniper
08-11-2005, 10:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read past page 1, so forgive me if this is repetitive...but is 4K a month before taxes, health care, retirements savings, etc. a realistic salary? You'd get the same deal at Starbucks at not have to sweat a variance bomb every month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Money is all relative... From a "global" perspective, 50K/yr probably puts you in the top 1% of earners.

PokerHorse
08-12-2005, 01:17 PM
You dont have to respect my comments since i dont have a poker book or wpt tourney win. Both Roy Cooke, (in his last article) and barry greenstein talk about how it doesnt make sense in their opinions to try and play more than 2 tables at once.
If your good enough to play 4-5 tables or more , why would you?? just move up. bye the way what is mtt stt ?? spell it out

StellarWind
08-12-2005, 07:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If your good enough to play 4-5 tables or more , why would you?? just move up.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of fair but not great players with strong 'video game' skills who make good money playing a lot of small stakes tables. To make the same money playing only two tables they would have to move up to stakes so high they couldn't win at all.

Plus basic math says that the variance monster is a lot less destructive if you get your action by playing many hands at lower stakes instead of fewer hands at higher stakes. Moving up to play less tables greatly increases bankroll requirements and tilt/stress issues.

The essence of good poker is putting yourself in the situation that makes you the most money. Many of the multitabling small stakes pros are exactly where they should be.

Others are doing themselves a disservice by failing to develop their talents. These players could work their way up and eventually make much better money if they reduced the number of tables they play.

Like most things in poker "it depends" on who you are, what you are capable of, and what you want from poker. But for many successful multitabling players moving up would be poker suicide. Beware of cookie-cutter career advice.

ianlippert
08-12-2005, 07:51 PM
Playing 2 tables is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring!!!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jaym96822
08-13-2005, 09:24 AM
"doesnt make sense in their opinions to try and play more than 2 tables at once."

depends on the definition of "make sense". If they mean less profitable, they are wrong. If they mean you will stunt your growth as a poker player, they are right.

I apologize for using acronyms which I assumed would be easy to decipher:

MTT = "M"ulti "T"able "T"ournaments
STT = "S"ingle "T"able "T"ournaments

goodguy_1
08-23-2005, 07:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
just think that 5-10 would be the minimum size to play inorder to make 50k a year or more

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only is $50K doable at $3-6 but $75K is as well! $50K is really a gimme for anyone with serious work ethic.

$75K is realistic if you have the work ethic and discipline foremost to get in hours even when you may not want to play You also need to understand a bit about human psychology by that I mean when you do run poorly you dont jump in bigger games to recoup loses,etc -you will have to be aware of all the traps that gamblers(yes poker isstill gamblin) can fall into and avoid them-for most players they learn this the hard way.

You will also need to play well in short and full $3-6 LHE games with a decent rakeback plan. $50K-$75K easy? matters what your temperment is ..can you put in long hours,do you enjoy the game? For someone who doesnt like to play and can't put in alot of hours this would be more tortuous then easy even if they are a fine player.

Saying it's easy and doing it are 2 different things. For most players it is anything but easy because of the bad runs,the boredom,the isolation etc.