Overcard challenge

[Nate tha' Great]

I hearby challenge all small stakes posters - and anybody else reading this really - to provide examples of where raising the flop with just overcards is correct.

Some specific conditions/requirements:

1) You MUST have had the lead (put the last raise in) on the preflop betting round. e.g. if you decide to just call in the BB with AQo and check-raise a ragged flop, that does not qualify.

2) You CANNOT have an OESD (e.g. KQ on a JTx flop) or a four-flush. Backdoor draws are okay, though.

3) You MUST provide player reads.

4) The raise may be either a raise of a bet or a 3-bet of a check-raise (or I suppose 3-bet of a bet and a raise).

5) You MUST describe, in some amount of detail, your intentions for the rest of your hand following your raise.

This is a challenge, not a contest, so there will be no prize.

Fire away.

-Nate

[brettbrettr]

I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

[Moneyline]

A maniac limps UTG, I raise with AK, the fairly passive button calls, everyone folds to the maniac who calls.

Flop: J63 rainbow (or anything else ragged)

Maniac bets, I raise.

The raise is to drive out the button. The maniac is capable of having anything, and since my hand has good showdown value I'm probably best. I'm taking this hand to the showdown barring only a couple exceptions (like sudden unconsciousness). If the maniac 3bets, I'm calling down if I don't improve. If the maniac calls, I'm betting the turn and checking behind on the river if I don't improve.

[Guruman]

recent imaginary hand at the My Bath Room 5/10 live:

Hero is button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG (generally tight preflop, weak player postflop) open-raises.

folds to hero, hero 3-bets. sb folds, bb(LAG)calls , UTG calls.

flop is 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets, UTG folds, hero raises.

Thoughts:

Preflop, UTG probably open raised with big suited broadways down to ATs/KQs or a pp down to 99. I don't see him making this move much with a smaller pp, as he'd most likely limp with those.

I re-raised in order to isolate with my own strong hand, and to try to pick up a draw if the flop didn't hit.

BB probably saw this as a blind steal move from me, and may have called with a wider range of overcards (probably down to 78s) and pocket pairs (I'd guess down to 55)

flop:

BB's bet may be a probe bet with overcards, a PP hoping for a re-raise, or a LAG pure bluff. UTG clearly did not want to get caught between two aggressive players with what he held, and got out.

Based on the wide range of hands that BB may be playing, my Ace may be good about 25% of the time by itself here. The Q kicker may be good another 25% or so of the time. I also have a backdoor flush draw, and a backdoor straight draw. Outside of a queen, the 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif would be my ideal turn card here. If I'm behind, I'd count my three aces as mostly good outs, my three queens about the same, and my BD draws at 1.5 outs each. Full value says that's 9 outs, so I'll discount that to 8 to account for a villain AK or AQ (chop).

I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing.

Also, this would be an ok spot to sniff out a set or medium pp on the turn, since a call/checkraise or call/betraise line from BB probably would mean that I was beat and could safely fold.

If I'm re-raised, I'll call and re-evaluate on the turn.

[Guruman]

these look like pretty standard situations so far. Can anyone come up with a correct re-raise from UTG into two people?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
ecent imaginary hand at the My Bath Room 5/10 live:

Hero is button with AQ

UTG (generally tight preflop, weak player postflop) open-raises.

folds to hero, hero 3-bets. sb folds, bb(LAG)calls , UTG calls.

flop is 3 2 2

BB bets, UTG folds,

[/ QUOTE ]

I got this far and suspect that no one is this weak.

[Guruman]

<font color="blue"> [chris berman voice]I know because I was there![/chris berman voice] </font> /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Honestly, I've seen this before and i used it because it was the most obvious situation I could think of. More marginal would be to 3-bet a raise from UTG with the hopes of folding the SB and the intention of getting out if capped.

[admiralfluff]

hero is BB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG+1 14/7/2 opens, 2 loose-weak-ish MP and CO coldcallers, hero calls.

flop:

6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP bets, CO calls, hero raises...

probably buying myself outs by folding UTG+1's overs. Check-folding anything that isn't a /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9, T, Q, K on turn. Leading a K or Q.

[thirddan]

the only overs you want to fold are the A's, other than that you only want him to fold a K or Q if he has an A kicker or has already paired...

[jgorham]

Hand I played yesterday:

Laggy (near maniac) opens on the CO. Hero 3bets A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the button, both blinds call. SB is a little loose preflop, but decent postflop (good handreader), BB is weak tight.

Flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to CO who bets, hero raises.

Edit: Intentions

This really depends on how many players stick around on the turn (and who they are). Mostly the intentions here are to raise a better A, or even two overcards to my 9, which should be profitable based on how large the pot is at this point.

I think I am checking through most turns that I don't improve if given the possibility.

[jgorham]

I only like this flop raise if you are planning on taking a free card on the turn.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give it a go....

I have AsJs in the CO. UTG +1, a tight passive player limps. Fold to LMP loose passive type who limps, Hero raises, BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for 9.5sbs: 2h 2s 4d.

BB checks, UTG bets, loose passive calls, Hero raises expecting both UTG and MP fish to call.

I'm putting the tight passive EP player on a mid-PP, giving me 6 clean outs, not to mention my bd straight and flush draws. Call it approx 8 outs due to the paired board. LMP fish has 2 overs and doesn't like to fold on this sort of raggety flop.

I'm taking a free card on the turn and folding the river u/i. I'm raising EP's river auto-bet if I do improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[Nate tha' Great]

Okay, this one I approve of. Clearly it may be worth raising when there's some chance that you have the best hand, especially if you also have the chance to protect that hand.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
hero is BB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG+1 14/7/2 opens, 2 loose-weak-ish MP and CO coldcallers, hero calls.

flop:

6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP bets, CO calls, hero raises...

probably buying myself outs by folding UTG+1's overs. Check-folding anything that isn't a /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9, T, Q, K on turn. Leading a K or Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't count because we didn't raise preflop. FWIW, I don't think it's worth investing two bets here once an overcaller is already entangled in the hand.

[party36master]

You have AK in MP2.

Preflop:
UTG+1 raises, you reraise, MP3 coldcalls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop comes J93 rainbow. (4 players, 8.3 SB)

BB checks, UTG+1 bets, I raise.

I'm not going to provide a ton of imaginary reads here, since I think its standard. Please tell me why I'm wrong.

I don't think I'm ahead. The pot is too big to fold.
I raise because I want something like A3s to fold, to pick up some more outs. Getting 11:2, that's not enough to call w/A3s.

I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

Assuming BB and MP3 fold, on the turn, I bet if checked to, and check through the river if A or K doesn't hit.

Standard?

[mscags]

I think it is. It always amazes me how easy it is to get a free card.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
So the raise is for value? For a free card? Surely we're not going to get credit for having hit this board? Is the chance of a free card substantially greater than the chance of a 3-bet? I need more convincing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a free card play that makes our hand look like a big pair. Tight passive players aren't 3 betting me here often.

I don't however have a ton of confidence in betting the turn into 2 players. Clearly I bet if I improve.

The question is what do I do when the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif's pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand I played yesterday:

Laggy (near maniac) opens on the CO. Hero 3bets A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the button, both blinds call. SB is a little loose preflop, but decent postflop (good handreader), BB is weak tight.

Flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to CO who bets, hero raises.

Edit: Intentions

This really depends on how many players stick around on the turn (and who they are). Mostly the intentions here are to raise a better A, or even two overcards to my 9, which should be profitable based on how large the pot is at this point.

I think I am checking through most turns that I don't improve if given the possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know about this one. The board is dry and the pot is proteted so maniac is more likely than usual to have some kind of hand here. Plus he's also more likely to 3-bet than usual since he's aggressive. I also don't know that our draw is strong enough to be worth paying two bets for, even if we get a free card.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is what do I do when the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif's pops off. UTG is then likley to fold his mid PP, maybe even the fish. My problem with the concept of checking with outs is that I usually bet and face the inevitiable c/r. Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely betting that card. We've got both plenty of legitimate equity and plenty of bluffing equity so I'm betting and calling all raises. I'd probably also bet a king that didn't give us the flush draw, FWIW.

[brettbrettr]

Yup, agreed. Have to given the play thus far.

[Guruman]

how bout this:

folded to hero in sb with AK/images/graemlins/heart.gif BB is a LAG who likes to play big pots.

Hero raises, villain re-raises, hero caps, villain calls.

flop 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

hero bets...

Villain could have a wide range of blind re-stealing hands, and I'd put his probability of a pp at about 30-40% of the time. I'm probably in the lead here, and if not I have outs to draw to a better boat than villain would have.

I don't know if three-betting a raise on the flop here would be spewing, but I may have enough equity against this lag for it to be correct.

If villain calls then the turn is tricky because I don't exactly know which cards to fear. I may go into WA/WB mode for the rest of the hand.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want to slow down overcards? Something goofy like KQ is drawing very thin against us and we're happy if it keeps putting money in the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this would be an ok spot to sniff out a set or medium pp on the turn, since a call/checkraise or call/betraise line from BB probably would mean that I was beat and could safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can probably fold the turn if say we're check-raised, but at that point we've already invested 2 BB in the pot postflop and aren't getting to see a showdown (remember we can guarantee ourselves a showdown for at most 2.5 BB).

I prefer just calling this flop and usually just calling down.

[Nate tha' Great]

This is just a re-raise for value, plain and simple, not that it doesn't meet the criteria established in my original post.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have either 10 or 7 outs but might fold incorrectly if they think they think they're drawing to a gutshot?

Rob

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have either 10 or 7 outs but might fold incorrectly if they think they think they're drawing to a gutshot?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they have either 10 or 7 outs but might fold incorrectly if they think they think they're drawing to a gutshot?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that you don't have the best hand (and in this example, you don't), and that you can't fold a better hand (and in this example, I don't think you can), then no, you shouldn't be raising. I didn't say I agree with the raise (I don't), but I was answering the question. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]
I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing because I'm an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP

[Entity]

I should note that the times I raise with overcards are generally when I feel it's very likely that someone is leading into me with a draw (especially with a draw that they'll have a hard time 3-betting) or when I feel they're sufficiently passive that they'll allow me to see the river for an extra .5SB with my marginal 6-outer.

Rob

[Entity]

Here's an example. BB is loose and likes to bet out with both draws and weak made hands. He's a bit on the passive side if you fight back. He's capable of folding when it's fairly clear he's beaten.

CO posts a blind. Folded to him, he checks, I raise black KQo. SB folds. BB calls. CO calls. Three to the flop for 6.5SB.

The flop is 257r. BB bets. CO folds. I raise, planning on checking behind on any non-ace, non-king, non-queen, and betting any of those.

Rob

[Justin A]

Villain in this hand has defended his blind quite a few times against me, and has led out on the flop almost every time. I've done a decent amount of folding to these bets.

I open on the button with JTo, villain calls.

Flop is 782r. Villain bets and I raise.

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll add a real read. I'm 21%/12%/1.9. Original bettor doesn't value my raise, and bets into me on the flop w/TT.

I want the two others to fold, because I can push original bettor off his hand with a flop raise, and a turn bet.
I don't want to lose when an 8 or Q drops.

Even without the original bettor having TT, I have company when I have just overcards, in a reasonable size pot, and I want people out to pick up outs. I don't want to lose to two pair, or when a weak draw hits.
I have position on original bettor, and can play the hand without too much problem heads up from the turn.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example. BB is loose and likes to bet out with both draws and weak made hands. He's a bit on the passive side if you fight back. He's capable of folding when it's fairly clear he's beaten.

CO posts a blind. Folded to him, he checks, I raise black KQo. SB folds. BB calls. CO calls. Three to the flop for 6.5SB.

The flop is 257r. BB bets. CO folds. I raise, planning on checking behind on any non-ace, non-king, non-queen, and betting any of those.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

We're still walking a pretty thin line here between those times we get our free card, and those times we get 3-bet or stopped-and-goed.

Say for example that 2/3 of the time, we get our free card (savings of 1 SB versus calling twice), but the remaining 1/3 of the time we get 3-bet (loss of 2 SB). Now the free card play just breaks even.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain in this hand has defended his blind quite a few times against me, and has led out on the flop almost every time. I've done a decent amount of folding to these bets.

I open on the button with JTo, villain calls.

Flop is 782r. Villain bets and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the plan for the turn?

[party36master]

FWIW, Here's Ed Miller's entry: pg 231 SSHE

You have AQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif in BB.
Two players limp, SB calls, you raise, everyone calls.

Flop is 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Small blinds is aggressive and thinking player, and bets.
You should raise.

[sthief09]

say you raise two loose-average or aggressive limpers on the button with A8s. two tight-average blinds come along making it 10 SB.

flop is 456 with one of your suit. limper #2 bets into you. by raising, you might be able to fold out better aces that might have limped or called from the blinds, you can fold out another 8, it's possible that the bettor is betting a draw, and if behind, you have the gut shot, backdoor draw, and ace over to improve to. if we get it headsup, then if we've caught him betting a draw, we're best, and if he's betting a made hand it's possible that we have both overs clean as well as the backdoor draw and clean gut shot.

intention is to bet the turn if it gets headsup, take a free card if someone cold calls, and take the free showdown against the limper

good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

[sthief09]

personally I think once you do that you have to fire on the turn and river. I hate these spots. such a small pot and it ends up costing me so much

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nate,

In most instances, the pot isn't as big. With a 3-bet preflop and 4 people to the flop increasing our own equity by only a small percent may make the raise worthwhile. Obviously there is a chance of a 3-bet and other factors at play here both against and to our advantage. I'm not saying I'd raise if I knew it would increase my equity by only 2-3% but when you start looking at the numbers with a 5% (1 in 20) equity increase and a big (likely ~15 BB) final pot when you're seeing the river anyway then it's worth the extra SB. I'm not thinking specifically of T7 or KT but folding out any hand or combination of hands that otherwise would have called will often increase our own equity by more than a SB worth with this sized pot. I think this one is close.

In all fairness though, I think the pot size on the flop he listed was lower than it would be with the given preflop action.

Nice post, btw.

Chief

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing because I'm an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it a lot.

[QTip]

4 loose limpers to you on the button with AKo, you raise, blinds fold.

Let's say the limper to your immediate right bets:

Let's talk about this, how much does it even matter if he's aggressive or passive? Really, does it even matter that much?

Now...let's say he bet into you and the flop is all cards that are either a T or under (not paired). Does is even matter how draw heavy it is (outside of the ridiculous).

But...I mean, in this situation, what's the vast difference among these flops?

1. T /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

2. T /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

3. 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

4. 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I really believe I'm raising any flop like these.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, dude. Basically I think there are three fundamental reasons why raising with overcards could be correct:

1. Because you might have the best hand, or a better hand than the player betting into you.

The raise is pretty clear when this sort of situation arises in a multiway pot. The ideal example is when a LAG bets into you on a semi-coordinated flop, and there is another player who is fairly tight left to act behind you. Still, these situations are tough to recognize in practice. Most players, even fairly aggrssive players, tend to have a medium-strength made hand when they bet into a preflop raiser. With a big hand, they'll check-raise the flop or maybe slowplay until the turn. They'll also check-raise a particularly strong draw while check-calling with weak draws or very weak made hands.

2. Because a raise gives you some folding equity.

I remember bicyclekick saying a while back that he almost never used the free card play. Part of this was because he's playing at stakes where the free card play simply doesn't work all that often (see below) but another part of it is because, those times that he did raise the flop with overs, he usually followed through with a bet on the turn in order to put pressure on his opponents to fold. In these instances, it may help you to have another big card on the board. For example, say the flop is K82 rainbow, you hold AQ with a backdoor flush draw, and an aggressive regular bets into you. You think it a bit unnatural that he's playing a king this way, so you might consider raising and betting the turn again, hoping to get him to fold something like a pair of 8's.

3. Because a raise gives you a free card.

I list this rationaile last on purpose. In practice, a free card rarely produces an effective savings of 0.50 BB. If there is even, say, a 20% chance of a 3-bet, then your savings is shaved down to 0.20 BB. This is especially likely to be the case as you move up to higher stakes and the opponents become more aggressive. It's also worth considering whether it's worth it to pay two more bets to continue, even if the chance of getting a free card is fairly high. Some weak draws might only be worth investing one more bet, or even folding straight away against certain opponents.

I don't think cleaning up outs is a sufficient justification for raising all on its own in about 99% of all cases. Usually cleaning up outs is a side benefit that accompanies one of the other rationalies for raising. For example, say that I have K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG and am bet into by one of the blinds in a four-way pot on a J /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flop. Here I may raise, which could result in my winning the pot if a player has a hand like KT behind me. But I'm also raising because I may get a free card, and because I have a fair amount of equity in the hand. I may even have some folding equity if it winds up being heads up and a card like an A or maybe another J fall on the turn. It would be a good challenge for somebody to post a hand in which raising was correct purely or even mostly for cleaning-up reasons.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example. BB is loose and likes to bet out with both draws and weak made hands. He's a bit on the passive side if you fight back. He's capable of folding when it's fairly clear he's beaten.

CO posts a blind. Folded to him, he checks, I raise black KQo. SB folds. BB calls. CO calls. Three to the flop for 6.5SB.

The flop is 257r. BB bets. CO folds. I raise, planning on checking behind on any non-ace, non-king, non-queen, and betting any of those.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

We're still walking a pretty thin line here between those times we get our free card, and those times we get 3-bet or stopped-and-goed.

Say for example that 2/3 of the time, we get our free card (savings of 1 SB versus calling twice), but the remaining 1/3 of the time we get 3-bet (loss of 2 SB). Now the free card play just breaks even.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate,

I'll put it simply and say that if I thought there were even a somewhat small chance of getting 3-bet, I wouldn't raise. It's one of those situations that comes up all the time shorthanded -- the sort of player who loves to bet into the PFR and literally seems to do it every hand. The any pair, any draw sort. The sort that isn't particularly aggressive but does this habitually.

It's very rare that I raise with just overcards. With overcards+gutshots, oc+bd draws, etc., I raise a little more often.

Rob

[QTip]

I'd like to make a couple of comments here:

[ QUOTE ]
Part of this was because he's playing at stakes where the free card play simply doesn't work all that often (see below) but another part of it is because, those times that he did raise the flop with overs, he usually followed through with a bet on the turn in order to put pressure on his opponents to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think another piece of this is that he probably rarely has more than 1 or 2 opponents left on the turn. Whereas, in SS games, it's not uncommon to have 4 people call 2 cold on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think cleaning up outs is a sufficient justification for raising all on its own in about 99% of all cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time I'm thinking about overcards that are smaller than mine, which is why I previously gave the example with us having AK and the flop being T or less. I want to see the Qs and Js fold. However, this isn't really cleaning up our outs, it's just improving our chances of winning the pot.

I think I could see something like AK raising a raggy flop to fold something like bottom pair, top kicker happening with some frequency. But...I'll see if I can find a specific hand.

[QTip]

I'm reviewing the overcard and protecting hand sections of SSHE right now as a result of this post. I had posed some rhetorical questions in my first response, and I want to just quote something from SSHE page 232.

2 limpers, sb completes, you raise with AQs and everyone calls. The sb bets...

"An aggressive player who bets a smoewhat coordinated flop could have a wide range of weak hands. A timide player who bets a ragged flop cannot."

So...I do understand how the player and board can make a difference. However, I also think there's a pretty big difference in the position of the players as well. For example, I think if we're the bb and we raise PF, the sb betting into us on the flop is something more to consider than being the button, having raised PF, and have the CO bet into us after everyone has checked to him. This is just something I feel, and I'm trying to understand why I feel that way. I guess I'm coming up with a couple things:

1. I have the opportunity to at least try to get a free card.

2. I think a player first to act in a field betting the flop is a bit more serious than late position betting after a bunch of weak checks.

[QTip]

It's interesting to note that in all the hands that Ciaffone has in his overcards section of Middle Limit Holdem Poker, there is no example where you raise with overcards on the flop after being bet into....perhaps this is what the OP is talking about /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway, there is an intersting section in "Improve Your Poker" on "Raising and Missing". I want to make a separate post on this.

I think it's great we're reviewing overcard play, because I think a lot of us (myself include) do a fair amount of spewing in our games with UI overcards.

[private joker]

Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, dude. Basically I think there are three fundamental reasons why raising with overcards could be correct:

1. Because you might have the best hand, or a better hand than the player betting into you.

The raise is pretty clear when this sort of situation arises in a multiway pot. The ideal example is when a LAG bets into you on a semi-coordinated flop, and there is another player who is fairly tight left to act behind you. Still, these situations are tough to recognize in practice. Most players, even fairly aggrssive players, tend to have a medium-strength made hand when they bet into a preflop raiser. With a big hand, they'll check-raise the flop or maybe slowplay until the turn. They'll also check-raise a particularly strong draw while check-calling with weak draws or very weak made hands.

2. Because a raise gives you some folding equity.

I remember bicyclekick saying a while back that he almost never used the free card play. Part of this was because he's playing at stakes where the free card play simply doesn't work all that often (see below) but another part of it is because, those times that he did raise the flop with overs, he usually followed through with a bet on the turn in order to put pressure on his opponents to fold. In these instances, it may help you to have another big card on the board. For example, say the flop is K82 rainbow, you hold AQ with a backdoor flush draw, and an aggressive regular bets into you. You think it a bit unnatural that he's playing a king this way, so you might consider raising and betting the turn again, hoping to get him to fold something like a pair of 8's.

3. Because a raise gives you a free card.

I list this rationaile last on purpose. In practice, a free card rarely produces an effective savings of 0.50 BB. If there is even, say, a 20% chance of a 3-bet, then your savings is shaved down to 0.20 BB. This is especially likely to be the case as you move up to higher stakes and the opponents become more aggressive. It's also worth considering whether it's worth it to pay two more bets to continue, even if the chance of getting a free card is fairly high. Some weak draws might only be worth investing one more bet, or even folding straight away against certain opponents.

I don't think cleaning up outs is a sufficient justification for raising all on its own in about 99% of all cases. Usually cleaning up outs is a side benefit that accompanies one of the other rationalies for raising. For example, say that I have K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG and am bet into by one of the blinds in a four-way pot on a J /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flop. Here I may raise, which could result in my winning the pot if a player has a hand like KT behind me. But I'm also raising because I may get a free card, and because I have a fair amount of equity in the hand. I may even have some folding equity if it winds up being heads up and a card like an A or maybe another J fall on the turn. It would be a good challenge for somebody to post a hand in which raising was correct purely or even mostly for cleaning-up reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is fantastic.

[admiralfluff]

oops, didn't catch the clause about putting in the last raise preflop. As for the flop raise, I ran some numbers and I think it is pretty damn close. Depending on opponents and slight differences in the hand, I think it could go either way.

btw,
thanks for this thread.

[halis123456789]

Follow the thread of mine below and tell me if I was correct to re-raise with UNDERCARDS to the flop.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2742023&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

[Trix]

You raise a limper or raise first in and both blinds call, so 3way.

Flop comes somewhat ragged, with or without a draw.

When there isn´t a draw and the guy on your right bets into you with a hand that likely doesn´t have you reverse dominated, meaning your hand is worth atleast a call, then I like raising as it can clean outs from the last guy and if I show weakness and just called, then I´ll get check-raised by some hands that could have folded, had I raised, so I´m putting 2 bets in anyway with lower implied odds and no chance of a free card. This asumes that the limper is the type to bet pairs into the raiser on low boards and then slow down if raised, but would have check-raised or slowplayed better hands.

On a more drawy board against a player who also bets draws here, then raising overcards with showdown value to get the 3. guy out, aswell as get to showdown cheaper and again, to avoid giving your hand away and inducing a check-raise from hands that could have folded, had you raised is better imo.

Sometimes you get check-3bet and it costs 3bets, but I think it´s better overall anyway.

That´s all for now, but I´ll save whatever I get next time I play.

[elindauer]

Hi Nate,

Just saw this in the digest. Nice post.

Here's a sort of general case that I think warrants a raise in which you can be fairly sure you do not have the best hand. It just happened to me a few minutes ago.

You are on the button w/ AK. 5 limpers to you, you raise. 7 see the flop for 2 bets.

flop: J43

EP bets, two callers to you. You can't fold, as you are getting huge odds. So you raise, because your opponents are loose and passive. Your raise looks like it must be an overpair in this clearly protected pot, so the jacks slow down and go into check-call mode.


Results: Turn Q. Checked to you. You check.
River A. Checked to you. You bet, and get called by (to your surprise) only 1 hand, KQ.


So the general situation is: multiway raised pot preflop, loose passive opponents, good chance they will check to you on the turn.

[QTip]

This one just happened, and I think it's fit this bill.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Edit: Flop better was loose and fairly aggressive, but I figured there was at least a pair on this drawless board. My plan was to take a free card on the turn if I got the chance.

[SlantNGo]

Why is this textbook?

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

[private joker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
Why is this textbook?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't it be? I have overcards and a backdoor flush draw, and moreover only 5 cards in the deck hit that flop. I have position on the bettor directly to my right, and I can take a free card on the turn if it's 3-way and checked to me, which it was. I hit my flush on the river and was able to raise a bettor because I showed weakness on the turn.

How are you playing this hand and why?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a textbook case:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]


I was going to suggest this.

[private joker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
This one just happened, and I think it's fit this bill.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Edit: Flop better was loose and fairly aggressive, but I figured there was at least a pair on this drawless board. My plan was to take a free card on the turn if I got the chance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Q -- I like it until the river, where I'd actually put in a bet. Usually after showing weakness on the turn like you did, the opponent will bet the river if he has anything. Since he checked again, I think you can put in a bet here, because he'll fold maybe 15-20% of the time, and you're getting 7:1 on the play.

Most likely he has a 9, but it's worth a shot, especially if you had a read that he makes laydowns like that. But you say he's loose and aggressive, so it's probably not a done deal.

[SlantNGo]

I would have played it the same but I never knew why... I'm a micro guy, and I got my ass handed to me at 1/2 by not knowing how to play well in HU postflop situations. Thanks for the explanation!

[ QUOTE ]
How are you playing this hand and why?

[/ QUOTE ]