I think I threw up a little in my mouth on this one...

[DarrenX]

1st hand, $215... young children, look away...

***** Hand History for Game 2268043038 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 13433462) - Sun Jun 26 19:26:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 11783 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: iheartfish (1000)
Seat 2: artiepoliver (1000)
Seat 3: olijenab (1000)
Seat 4: DumbGoy (1000)
Seat 5: Lopezzz (1000)
Seat 6: DarrenX (1000)
Seat 7: Extratopping (1000)
Seat 8: IdaHadDatPot (1000)
Seat 9: c1db0dl (1000)
Seat 10: yotty1 (1000)
yotty1 posts small blind (10)
iheartfish posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DarrenX [ Jc, Jd ]
artiepoliver folds.
olijenab folds.
DumbGoy folds.
Lopezzz folds.
DarrenX raises (60) to 60
Extratopping folds.
IdaHadDatPot folds.
c1db0dl folds.
yotty1 calls (50)
iheartfish calls (45)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, 9c, Tc ]
yotty1 bets (15)
iheartfish raises (55) to 55
DarrenX calls (55)
yotty1 calls (40)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2d ]
yotty1 bets (15)
iheartfish calls (15)
DarrenX raises (325) to 325
yotty1 calls (310)
iheartfish calls (310)
** Dealing River ** : [ Ks ]
yotty1 checks.
iheartfish checks.
DarrenX checks.

[Supersetoy]

AK wins right? Guy had Ac?

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
1st hand, $215... young children, look away...

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESF and an overpair. I don't see how can avoid going down with the ship on this.

Were you up against QQ and a set of tens?

[kyro]

iheartfish missed his flush. Let's hope it wasn't AcK.

As for the other guy? Hell if I know. He could have anything from two pair, to a scared set, to AT. The minbets suggest he sucks, so I give him no credit for PF.

I think you played it fine given the odd betting patterns.

[wrongshui]

That looks alot like one of them playing QJo, with the queen of clubs.

The other most likely had AQo or AKo, with either the A or K of clubs...

But I really think someone snagged the straight, and was afraid of pushing the river.

[DarrenX]

Anyone reraise on the flop? I figured to push up to around a pot-sized bet after the initial minbet, but when the second guy raised a little, I froze and called... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Couple more posts and I'll show results

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone reraise on the flop? I figured to push up to around a pot-sized bet after the initial minbet, but when the second guy raised a little, I froze and called... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Couple more posts and I'll show results

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a reraise is getting a bit more frisky than i would like. Although, if you get pushed behind you, you may be able to escape relatively unscathed.

[wrongshui]

I'd only re-raise if it was HU. Right now, best case scenario on the re-raise would be to knock out better 1, if he didnt have Ac.

It's a perfect multiple draw hand, and people are going to gamble on it.

I'd play it just like you did. Personally, I like the turn bet, but would probably tone it down... maybe 200 or so. It's not a pot sized bet, but, you'll know where you're at. If someone is willing to draw for their nut flush at 200, they'll do it at 300+ too.

Could have saved you a few bucks, the river is where you're going to make your move if you hit anyways.

[microbet]

My response was going to be "Why don't you raise the flop?"

[freemoney]

why make that raise so big on the turn, your hand has showdown vaue but when you make it 325 you put yourself in such an awkward spot on the river if a bunch of cards come, your opponents make it really easy by only making it 15, i make it 80 and check behind almost any river, i hate making it 325 on the turn.

[microbet]

I don't understand. If he's on the nut flush draw, I want my bet sufficiently large for his call to be a mistake, and even larger if he'll call it.

(Actually a bit larger than for it to be just a mistake for him, because I think in a tourney there's a range where could both lose equity.)

[freemoney]

i hate raising the flop really, it becomes an awkardly large pot and your hand is transparent if you make it, a straight or a flush (which is easiy not best), id rather call the flop and evaluate on the turn.

[freemoney]

you really dont wanna play a big pot here, especially against 2 opponents, your goal should be getting this to showdown cheaply not giving the nut flush draw incorrect odds to hit.

[wrongshui]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If he's on the nut flush draw, I want my bet sufficiently large for his call to be a mistake, and even larger if he'll call it.

(Actually a bit larger than for it to be just a mistake for him, because I think in a tourney there's a range where could both lose equity.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm, both players have already shown aggression... Like I said before, the best you can hope for, is to knock out #1, if he was just being silly with his bet... That board, with 3 players, I don't think he was... I think he's made his straight or has got a good drawing hand right now... I dont think he's on AcK... I think #2 is on Ac.

If you re-raise, and #1 calls, #2 now has proper odds to make the call.

So how are you forcing out the higher flush draw? You aren't... The only way you can make improper odds to call, would be if #1 had the nut... which with that silly bet, I dont think is happening... i think he's either got a straight, or possibly 2 pair... either way, he's staying in.

[adanthar]

Let's see...ok, PF good, pot's 180, you flop an OESFD and an overpair and so far one putz minbet and another raised to 1/4 pot. Yeah, I'm making it 200 here and pushing the turn, and I don't think it's close.

But OK, you called. The difference between pushing the turn and making it 325 is...well, you getting beaten by AKo.

edit: Incidentally, everyone commenting on this hand needs to realize that Ac only has 6 outs (plus the aces).

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

But OK, you called. The difference between pushing the turn and making it 325 is...well, you getting beaten by AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your line. I'd try to shut this down on the turn too.

As far as putting villain on AKo, is this a normal line for AK at this level? Seems a little incongruent see someone calling t310 on the turn with only a 12% chance to hit.

(This is where someone points to pot odds and I slap my forehead for looking like a donk in front of everyone.)

OK, in an effort to learn, can someone check this for me:

1. Pot odds for Yotti's call on turn was appx. 2:1
2. This call now gives iheartfish appx. 3:1

If either of these guys have AK, then he is only 7:1 to hit, making this a bad call, correct?

[adanthar]

Your math is right (well, not really, if he thinks his overcards and his draw are some mix of good, he has 10-15 outs or 3-4.x:1) but you forgot the donk factor.

'It's only 300 chips so I call'.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Your math is right (well, not really, if he thinks his overcards and his draw are some mix of good, he has 10-15 outs or 3-4.x:1) but you forgot the donk factor.

'It's only 300 chips so I call'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually didn't consider him holding a club in the math.

The good news about the donk factor (dF) is that it is a known constant: "If opponent bets, then call."

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If he's on the nut flush draw, I want my bet sufficiently large for his call to be a mistake, and even larger if he'll call it.

(Actually a bit larger than for it to be just a mistake for him, because I think in a tourney there's a range where could both lose equity.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does this equitity go? Does us having imbalanced stacks increase everyone elses?

[microbet]

It does. ICM Calculator (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html)

Check it out there.

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
1st hand, $215... young children, look away...

***** Hand History for Game 2268043038 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 13433462) - Sun Jun 26 19:26:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 11783 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: iheartfish (1000)
Seat 2: artiepoliver (1000)
Seat 3: olijenab (1000)
Seat 4: DumbGoy (1000)
Seat 5: Lopezzz (1000)
Seat 6: DarrenX (1000)
Seat 7: Extratopping (1000)
Seat 8: IdaHadDatPot (1000)
Seat 9: c1db0dl (1000)
Seat 10: yotty1 (1000)
yotty1 posts small blind (10)
iheartfish posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DarrenX [ Jc, Jd ]
artiepoliver folds.
olijenab folds.
DumbGoy folds.
Lopezzz folds.
DarrenX raises (60) to 60
Extratopping folds.
IdaHadDatPot folds.
c1db0dl folds.
yotty1 calls (50)
iheartfish calls (45)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, 9c, Tc ]
yotty1 bets (15)
iheartfish raises (55) to 55
DarrenX calls (55)
yotty1 calls (40)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2d ]
yotty1 bets (15)
iheartfish calls (15)
DarrenX raises (325) to 325
yotty1 calls (310)
iheartfish calls (310)
** Dealing River ** : [ Ks ]
yotty1 checks.
iheartfish checks.
DarrenX checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

** Summary **
Main Pot: 1320
Board: [ 8c 9c Tc 2d Ks ]
iheartfish balance 560, lost 440 [ Ac Qd ] [ high card ace -- Ac,Ks,Qd,Tc,9c ]
artiepoliver balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
olijenab balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
DumbGoy balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
Lopezzz balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
DarrenX balance 560, lost 440 [ Jc Jd ] [ a pair of jacks -- Ks,Jc,Jd,Tc,9c ]
Extratopping balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
IdaHadDatPot balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
c1db0dl balance 1000, didn't bet (folded)
yotty1 balance 1880, bet 440, collected 1320, net +880 [ Kh Qc ] [ a pair of kings -- Kh,Ks,Qc,Tc,9c ]

Thanks for all the comments.

I didn't have anyone on an overpair as I would have figured a reraise preflop. The flop minbet and 1/3 pot raise was the first indication these guys were donks.

The turn minbet and call solidified this read, and figured to have the best hand- so the question is, what do you do against donks that don't know odds? Make them pay for their draws. A bet of 200 as someone suggested would make a 575 pot, giving the first caller about the odds (3:1ish) to call with two overcards (assuming pairing an overcard would be good, which in this case it is).

All that being said, I'm leaning more towards the reraise on the flop to figure out where I'm at.

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
It does. ICM Calculator (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/ICM.html)

Check it out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely forgot ICM can be used in nonbubble situations.