Prayer

[wozo30]

I have a question to all religious believers. If God is perfect in every way, why pray?? Isn't that asking God to change his idea or path for you?? And wouldn't that be implying that God is imperfect?? I understand the table grace and the implied dialect but asking God for a miracle or to save another's life is just a theorhetical smack in the face is it not??

[Stu Pidasso]

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I have a question to all religious believers. If God is perfect in every way, why pray?? Isn't that asking God to change his idea or path for you?? And wouldn't that be implying that God is imperfect?? I understand the table grace and the implied dialect but asking God for a miracle or to save another's life is just a theorhetical smack in the face is it not??

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The best example of prayer in the Bible(that comes to my mind) is when Christ is in the garden and he begins to asks that he be spared the crucifixion but concludes by asking that the will of the Father be done.

Prayer is about glorifying God and submitting to his will. Its not about asking him to change his will.

Its apparent you have a warped understanding Christianity Wozo.

Stu

[wozo30]

I wouldn't say warped just ignorant. I don't knock anyone for their beliefs I just don't fully understand the degree to which some go. I respect what you say but still have a hard time basing my life on faith instead of hard facts. But I guess faith is a solution to the unanswerible questions.

[Aytumious]

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But I guess faith is a solution to the unanswerible questions.

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Faith is an excuse to not ask further questions.

[TomCollins]

Hey George Carlin, welcome to the forums.

[TStoneMBD]

well stated stu.

id like to further add that god is capable of divine intervention, but in most cases divine intervention is in direct conflict with free will and i do not believe that it is god's intent to intervene free will.

studies have shown that prayer has helped people in hospitals over people who have not been prayed for. i dont know the validity of these tests, but assuming that they are true for the purpose of this arguement shows that god is capable of divine intervention in this situation in which free will is not broken.

[Aytumious]

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studies have shown that prayer has helped people in hospitals over people who have not been prayed for. i dont know the validity of these tests, but assuming that they are true for the purpose of this arguement shows that god is capable of divine intervention in this situation in which free will is not broken.

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Placebos have also been shown to lead to benefits in health. How are we to distinguish whether prayer is not benificial due to the same physiological mechanism?

[TStoneMBD]

i really dont know the extent of the test, but from what i understand the patients that performed better were unaware of the prayers being sent out for them.

[Aytumious]

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i really dont know the extent of the test, but from what i understand the patients that performed better were unaware of the prayers being sent out for them.

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I thought of that after posting. Statistical fluke perhaps, who knows. I'd need to see the study. I'd be more inclined to believe in some sort of unknown psychic connection amongst humans before I did in a god answering prayers, however.

[David Sklansky]

"Faith is an excuse to not ask further questions"

It is worse than that in many cases. It is an excuse not to study hard subjects. That's probably why so few highly religious people get Phds in the subjects that require precise answers. (The other alternative is that people who don't have the smarts to get these Phds, even if they desired them, are forced to turn to faith as a rationalisation, just as some unlikeable or ugly people become fat.)

[BluffTHIS!]

If you believe in free will, and not some total system of predestination, then you have choices to cooperate or not with God's specific will for you, and one of the ways you do so is by prayer asking for your daily needs. Plus He told us to pray so it can't be contrary to His will. Prayer is communication, if seemingly one way.

[David Sklansky]

"i really dont know the extent of the test, but from what i understand the patients that performed better were unaware of the prayers being sent out for them."

If you are basing your belief in God partially because you beleve that this really did happen, and is not a statistical fluke, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

Let me make this very clear: Not Ready once said that any miracle I might see I would find some excuse for. But he is wrong. Obviously any single experiment can show results, even statistically significant results, that are not actually true. But this particular experiment is easily repeatable. I am extremely skeptical the original results showed a statistically significant result. And if it did I am 99% sure that if it did it was a fluke. But if it was repeated several times and continued to show those results I WOULD BELIEVE IN GOD. Period. It surprises me that anyone thinks that I or for that matter, any intelligent atheist or agnostic, would cling to their stance if the effect you were speaking about is a known fact. But its not and never will be. Wanna bet?

[TStoneMBD]

david i have experienced some miraculous things in my experience here on earth. im sorry that you havent, but when considering the exhistence of god at least consider my testimony. for the record, i am not even a religious person. as for this particular study, i do not know enough about it so it could all be hearsay. i wish i knew more of it so that i could make better sense of it, but until then its all speculation.