Is this rake excessive?

[RRRRICK]

I played yesterday in a $60.00 Buy in 1/2 NLHE Cash game at Crown Casino in Melbourne Australia. Not only did the house rake every pot but every hour on the hour each player had to cough up an additional $5.00. They also have a $200 Buy in 5/10 game and the rake is exactly the same. I just don't think this is fair. So the easy answer is don't sit down. But given the revolution of NLHE every budding new player wants to sit down and give it a try. Myself and two friends had no trouble making $50 - $60 an hour even with the heavy tax. What do you guys think? Is it excessive?

[TheCroShow]

WHOA WTF? is this an underground game? if it's a casino (i know nothing about poker there), that is absolutely ridiculous

[captswifty]

[ QUOTE ]
I played yesterday in a $60.00 Buy in 1/2 NLHE Cash game at Crown Casino in Melbourne Australia. Not only did the house rake every pot but every hour on the hour each player had to cough up an additional $5.00. They also have a $200 Buy in 5/10 game and the rake is exactly the same. I just don't think this is fair. So the easy answer is don't sit down. But given the revolution of NLHE every budding new player wants to sit down and give it a try. Myself and two friends had no trouble making $50 - $60 an hour even with the heavy tax. What do you guys think? Is it excessive?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did they rake every pot? I'm assuming that it's more than just $1 per hand, so then yes, it's excessive. It would be excessive if they raked only $1 per hand. I wouldn't play in a game that raked that much.

The $50-$60 per hour that you made is not a sustainable rate at that table. You need to play much longer than one session to know how much you can make per hour, and it's not going to be that much. The buy-in is also too low. For a game with a $2 big blind, the buy-in should be at least $100.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't play in the game. If you're only playing in it for entertainment, go for it. But if you want to make any kind of profit (or just break even with that insane rake), then it's not worth it.

I heard that dealers in Australia don't get tips. Is that true?

[captswifty]

[ QUOTE ]
WHOA WTF? is this an underground game? if it's a casino (i know nothing about poker there), that is absolutely ridiculous

[/ QUOTE ]

He said it was at Crown Casino, so I'm assuming that it's a legal casino.

[RRRRICK]

It was $2 per pot and I totally agree that you can't judge what a sustainable rate is based on one 10 hour session. I must say though every player that sat down was terrible and it was the only reason I kept playing. Poker has exploded in Australia in the last 12 months and Crown in Melbourne are cashing in on all the new players. I don't play professionally as I have a pretty high paying job and poker is pleasure for me. Having said that I don't like giving my money away. Yes it is true that dealers do not get tips in Australia. Australia is not a tipping culture like the US. Having said that players are forbidden to tip dealers even if they want to.

[blatz]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard that dealers in Australia don't get tips. Is that true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, no tipping...and they are not allowed to accept tips even if you try. There's a horrid catch though, booze aint free. If i recall, the special was a non alcoholic frozen Daquiri for 2 dollars. Didn't seem that special to me.

[RRRRICK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I heard that dealers in Australia don't get tips. Is that true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, no tipping...and they are not allowed to accept tips even if you try. There's a horrid catch though, booze aint free. If i recall, the special was a non alcoholic frozen Daquiri for 2 dollars. Didn't seem that special to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

All true.

I suppose it's a simple supply and demand equation. Crown Casino has the only legal card room in Melbourne, the next closest B&M is 600 miles away in Sydney. So Crown doesn't need to entice players with free booze as we have no alternative. With no competition they can pretty much do as they choose. That aside, it's a friendly atmosphere, the dealers are great and action is a plenty.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Myself and two friends had no trouble making $50 - $60 an hour even with the heavy tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think this type of hourly rate is sustainable, then you have major delusions and shouldn't be pretending to know what you are doing in any way, shape or form, not even in your dreams.

Given the rake you described, any player with any knowledge of "real" poker would realize this is not only unbeatable, but absolutely ridiculously unprofitable to the point of laughability, and wouldn't even need to ask whether it's reasonable or not.

Sorry to be blunt, but..................

al

[RRRRICK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Myself and two friends had no trouble making $50 - $60 an hour even with the heavy tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think this type of hourly rate is sustainable, then you have major delusions and shouldn't be pretending to know what you are doing in any way, shape or form, not even in your dreams.

Given the rake you described, any player with any knowledge of "real" poker would realize this is not only unbeatable, but absolutely ridiculously unprofitable to the point of laughability, and wouldn't even need to ask whether it's reasonable or not.

Sorry to be blunt, but..................

al

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem Al no offence taken.

I'm used to the arrogant elitests like yourself at who post at this site. People like you would never have the guts to stand across from someone and say face to face what you type behind the safety of your computer.
Much of what you say is probably true but it doesn't change the fact that you are gutless.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm used to the arrogant elitests like yourself at who post at this site. People like you would never have the guts to stand across from someone and say face to face what you type behind the safety of your computer.
Much of what you say is probably true but it doesn't change the fact that you are gutless.



[/ QUOTE ]

AM I gutless?

Everyone knows I am actually Dave Adams, a dealer and floorman in las vegas, who currently as of this date works at the aladdin casino.

I am also a long time and prolific poster on 2+2, a person who used to go by the name "dave in cali" since 1997, but since 2002 has gone by Al Capone Junior, and who has posted over 4000 times just in the last four years, and probably more like 10,000 times since I first started posting on 2+2.

In 2000 my essay "the curse of knowledge" was published in the conjelco newsletter, along with various other "well known" authors (if you don't know what the conjelco newsletter is, then you're a bigger moron that I thought). Check it out if you don't believe me, one version is STILL posted at http://www.thepokerforum.com/curseofknowledge.htm

Another of my essays is published at that particular site is http://www.thepokerforum.com/rakeandtime.htm

So before you call me gutless, let me make one thing clear...

I guarantee I WILL say the EXACT same thing to your face as I have on these forums, and since I make no effort to hide my identity behind some pathetic internet false identity, you are free to forever and always come see me in person and see if I still have the same thing to say!

I say what I say because I have done MY homework, and I have a LOT of experience both a no limit and at limit, a matter of THOUSANDS of hours (not a mere 85 hours or whatever).

So I suggest you be a little more careful about who you call an "arrogant elitist." Some of us have been here since before you were BORN punk. With your measly 86 posts I can't say you have really EARNED much of a reputation as an "arrogant elitist". GAG me with a fuggin' spork from kentucky fried chicken alread, you friggin punk.

Fuggin' punk. I'll kick you in the nuts.

al

p.s. (slightly pissed off at the moment, but still an "arrogant elitist")

p.p.s. yeah, I'm friggin' arrogant, but I have EARNED it you friggin' punk

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I gotta say, I've played with Dave/Al Capone Jr., and nothing says "elitist" more than having to go to the Bellagio gift shop to buy a touristy t-shirt that fits the dress code better than the muscle shirt you are wearing (and which incidentally does a much better job of covering the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif tattoo on your shoulder). Yeah, Dave's an elitist all right /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Sorry I missed the jamboree, Dave. It would have been an honor to have been kicked in the nuts by you.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Thanks a billion, man. Yeah, the jambouree kicked ass, and there will be more, so next time you're coming let's get one together in advance.

I think I was a "little tipsy" when I went off last night. But screw it, everything still stands anyway. I gots me a reputation as an insane criminal genius to maintain, and apparently now another reputation as an arrogant elitist!

al

p.s. Feel free to kick whomever you want in the nuts, tell 'em Al sent you. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[A_C_Slater]

Dear Al Capone Jr,

In regards to unreasonable rake, at my local casino there is a $6 half hourly time charge for the 1-2 NL. The maximum buy in is $100 and there is a $50 minimum buy in. There is no rake, but $1 is taken from each pot for the bad beat jackpot.

The players are usually terrible, but sometimes I'll sit at a tight table. Mostly though, it's a $12 open raise and 4 cold callers. People betting $15 into $80 pots when they have top pair on a 2flush board and 4 opponents. Yesterday, I saw pocket 6's open raise UTG to $15 and get raised all in too $80 by ATo and eventually called by the 6's (after a long, drawn out, and pretend "thinking" process for dramatic effect, because you know he ain't gonna fold them sixes, ever.) This happended twice with the same hands, though in reversed positions.

No one has really been able to answer my question on these forums about whether this game is beatable or not.

I figure that on average I have to win the blinds twice every half hour just to keep up with the rake. If there is about 15 hands per half hour. Then I have to win the blinds roughly, every seven hands on average.

If I'm playing 20% of the hands dealt to me and only winning on 70% of those, then is this even possible?

What would be a good winrate for this game, if any?

Most of my experience has been with limit, so I don't know the answer to these questions.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

This game is probably beatable, but not by much because that time charge is pretty high for the stakes. I can't give you any definitive answer here because such material doesn't exist in print that I am aware of, and I haven't kept very good records since the no limit craze, so I can't say from that either.

You gotta figure a typical no limit game with 10% to $4 max with a buck for the jackpot takes anywhere from $100-$150 or so off the table in an hour, so your time game is probably comparable to the total amount being taken off the table per hour. However, if you are tight like me /images/graemlins/grin.gif then you won't really be paying your fair share of rake, because you wont be in many pots. In a time game, you will pay equally as much as the loose players, which hurts you more than paying rake.

al

[chief444]

I've only had the pleasure of meeting Dave once but I can say with great certainty that he's neither elitest nor someone who would hesitate to tell you anything to your face that he would type here. And he's probably correct, certainly about the win rate you mention being unsustainable at least.

[pipster]

btw, winning 70% of the flops you see is thinking a little on the high side. I play limit instead of NL, but my Showdown Win % isn't even as high as 70% (a good day it is around 60% Showdown win and 35% Flopp seen win) So if you are seeing 3 hands per orbit (2 VP$IP and 1 BB) and win 1 in 3 of those hands you are running pretty darn well. And being up 0.5 BB/orbit (Big bet is 2xBig blind)would be 5 BB/100 which would be a VERY nice win rate at limit. I understand at NL it is big blinds so 10 BB/100 would not be to unsustainable but that is just to break even! Expecting a win rate of much more than 10 BB/100 at NL over the course of time is probably stretching it. With $2 blinds to get to $20/hr you need to win 10 BB/30 hands which is a nice 33 BB/100 win rate on top of the 10 BB/100 win rate.. So 43 BB/100... Whee!

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
And he's probably correct, certainly about the win rate you mention being unsustainable at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

That part's probably correct, I don't doubt it. The bigger question is whether to berate everyone who comes onto this forum with misconceptions about what's a sustainable winrate, or if we can get as far maintaining a civil tone and educating people when they show ignorance.

But he said it was the alcohol, so I take that to mean this isn't a new forum standard for newbie treatment that I have to comply with. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, winning 70% of the flops you see is thinking a little on the high side. I play limit instead of NL, but my Showdown Win % isn't even as high as 70% (a good day it is around 60% Showdown win and 35% Flopp seen win) So if you are seeing 3 hands per orbit (2 VP$IP and 1 BB) and win 1 in 3 of those hands you are running pretty darn well. And being up 0.5 BB/orbit (Big bet is 2xBig blind)would be 5 BB/100 which would be a VERY nice win rate at limit. I understand at NL it is big blinds so 10 BB/100 would not be to unsustainable but that is just to break even! Expecting a win rate of much more than 10 BB/100 at NL over the course of time is probably stretching it. With $2 blinds to get to $20/hr you need to win 10 BB/30 hands which is a nice 33 BB/100 win rate on top of the 10 BB/100 win rate.. So 43 BB/100... Whee!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but that applies to limit hold em games going to the river. When playing against these people it's raised about 6x the BB every hand, so when I do enter the pot it's always with a premium hand and I am usually way ahead when going to the flop. 70% doesn't just have to be on the flop but preflop as well when I reraise and everyone folds.

But yea, 70% I just tossed that figure out there to see if even at that number it's possible to win.

[Origami]

This means absolutely nothing, but last night I saw a guy take over $1000 off a $40 max buy-in NL game. Blinds are 1-1.

[RRRRICK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And he's probably correct, certainly about the win rate you mention being unsustainable at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

That part's probably correct, I don't doubt it. The bigger question is whether to berate everyone who comes onto this forum with misconceptions about what's a sustainable winrate, or if we can get as far maintaining a civil tone and educating people when they show ignorance.

But he said it was the alcohol, so I take that to mean this isn't a new forum standard for newbie treatment that I have to comply with. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to see someone understands. I didnot question what Dave said just the manner in which he said it. I also found it very amusing that Dave felt he had to give me his resume when I called him an elitest it shows a lot of insecurity as does his need to berrate anyone he asks something thats not up to standard. That is what an elitest does, spends there life climbing the mountain so that they push anyone off who tries to do the same. I have not posted at this site for over 3 months and Dave reminded me why.

Thanks Dave

As for your macho kick me in the nuts. I would love to give you my resume Dave which includes 3 national open age Karate Kumite titles.And I'd also love to tell you all about the 15 years it's taken me to reach 3rd Dan Sensei status, but I know I don't need to.
Maybe be next time your in Australia we can catch up for a beer and I will tell you all about it. Maybe you can give me some poker lessons in exchange for some fighting tips.

[TomCollins]

This is $5 Australian, so its a little less than $5 US.

[RRRRICK]

Why didn't you just post the link to that useful rake essay and be done with it.

I will be in Vegas in October, might look into staying at the Aladdin. I will try and catch up with you then.

[CrashPat]

Is it as bad as everybody thinks?

5 bucks per hour, not 5/half? And 2 dollar drop on the pot? So you are taking about 110 dollars per hour off the table for the house? And no tipping? I do not think that is that much worse than a 5-10% 4 dollar max drop, especially with tipping. The 60 dollar buyin at 1/2NL is plain silly, but I don't think the rake is the killer in the game at all.

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it as bad as everybody thinks?

5 bucks per hour, not 5/half? And 2 dollar drop on the pot? So you are taking about 110 dollars per hour off the table for the house? And no tipping? I do not think that is that much worse than a 5-10% 4 dollar max drop, especially with tipping. The 60 dollar buyin at 1/2NL is plain silly, but I don't think the rake is the killer in the game at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this looks like a pretty easy rake, not a harsh one. 2.50/dealer change, plus $2/pot isn't bad, given no tipping especially. If you are used to a $5/hr time charge for the $1/2 $100 NL at Foxwoods (I think that's the charge?) and you tip a buck anyway, I think the Aussie game's rake is significantly easier.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it as bad as everybody thinks?

5 bucks per hour, not 5/half? And 2 dollar drop on the pot? So you are taking about 110 dollars per hour off the table for the house? And no tipping? I do not think that is that much worse than a 5-10% 4 dollar max drop, especially with tipping. The 60 dollar buyin at 1/2NL is plain silly, but I don't think the rake is the killer in the game at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. And the $110/hr is Australian dollars. Of course so are the buyins and the blinds, but typically rake doesn't escalate much as the stakes get bigger.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you just post the link to that useful rake essay and be done with it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now what fun would that be? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's all good hoss! Just like to razz it up a little now and then!

al

[kevkev60614]

There's a single table tourney by me that usually lasts about an hour. $45 buy-in, 10 players, $200 1st place, $120 2nd place. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
my resume includes 3 national open age Karate Kumite titles. And ...3rd Dan Sensei status

[/ QUOTE ]
That's an impressive resume. I, for one, would be honored to try to kick you in the nuts.