Fold 'improved' hand on river?

[MrStretchie]

Party 15/30, 6 handed, very loose, somewhat aggro
Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif,8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG limps, Hero limps, CO limps, Button limps, SB limps, BB raises, called to Button, who limp-raises, BB caps, all call.
(6 way, 24 small bets)
Flop is 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif,6/images/graemlins/spade.gif,9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checked to hero, who checks expecting aggressive button to bet, but he doesn't.
Turn: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB bets, 1 fold, hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, hero caps, CO, Button and BB call
(28 big bets)
River: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB bets, hero calls, CO folds, Button raises, BB 3-bets, hero?

I've 'improved' to the flush, and more importantly have two of the flush cards, and the pot is astronomical.. on the other hand, I'm sure button is capping this, so is it worth 3 more big bets to see the higher flush?

[Dazarath]

Shorthanded, low suited connectors are not very good, especially if there's only 1 limper, and you're playing on an aggressive table. I'd fold preflop.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
Shorthanded, low suited connectors are not very good, especially if there's only 1 limper, and you're playing on an aggressive table. I'd fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and generally I would. However, this didn't play much like a shorthanded table. Every pot was at least 4-handed, many 5 or 6 when I was in them. Also everybody (as evidenced) often went too far, allowing plenty to be made up postflop.

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shorthanded, low suited connectors are not very good, especially if there's only 1 limper, and you're playing on an aggressive table. I'd fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and generally I would. However, this didn't play much like a shorthanded table. Every pot was at least 4-handed, many 5 or 6 when I was in them. Also everybody (as evidenced) often went too far, allowing plenty to be made up postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4-6 handed for every pot is good for your suited connectors, but the aggressiveness is not. You don't want to be paying 4 small bets to see the flop. If it were that loose and passive instead of aggressive, then it'd be a great limp (IMO).

[MrStretchie]

Again, I fully agree. Normally this table was pretty passive, with only the button being aggressive. (Although maybe even that is too much?) Any thoughts on the rest of the hand?

[Dazarath]

As for the rest of the hand, this is what I see. On the flop, I think betting might be better, unless you think the button will bet into a field of 5 others unimproved, as he's not always going to have an overpair. Checkraising is fine too, as it's impossible to know if he's going to bet it or not. On the river, I don't think it's too likely that BB has a higher flush, unless he's the type to 3-bet a turned flush draw. I'd be more worried about the button, because the way he played it, he could have something like AQs or AJs for the nut flush. As for whether or not too fold, I'll let some of the other people on this forum respond. I tend to call in these type of situations, but I feel that it may be a big leak.

[ggbman]

I'm definitly seeing a showdown here with the pot size.

[autobet]

You are getting over 30-1, but probably a great laydown.
I'm calling though. Betting out would have been my play...still calling of course.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting over 30-1, but probably a great laydown.
I'm calling though. Betting out would have been my play...still calling of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river you mean? BB bet into me. You wouldn't have raised him here, would you?

[The Dude]

Your preflop limp is really, really bad here.

As for the rest of the hand, I'd bet out on that flop. Button just did a really wierd preflop limp-reraise, so I'm not "expecting" him to do anything. Besides, betting here gives you a chance to either 3-bet or set up a check-raise for the turn.

On the river, I'm not folding and here's why. The button has proven he's pretty whacky just in this hand alone, so while I'm not thrilled by his raise, I'm not necessarily that scared by it either. And the BB could have A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif or something similar, he's as likely to have KK or AA.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]

Your preflop limp is really, really bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes raise this in a 6 handed game.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your preflop limp is really, really bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes raise this in a 6 handed game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do anymore, but I don't think the limp is awful. Borderline maybe, but look at the action he gets with the nuts. He can wait for pretrty solid equity edges postflop and pound them. That said, obviously would rather have a small pair than the connector here.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
Borderline maybe, but look at the action he gets with the nuts. He can wait for pretrty solid equity edges postflop and pound them. That said, obviously would rather have a small pair than the connector here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed in full. Basically my exact thoughts at the time. Nice that somebody doesn't think I'm nuts..
I mean, (I hate to do this but) SSHE suggests playing down to 98s from MP in a tight SS game (3-5 to flop). Admittedly 87 isn't 98, but with opponents playing this badly..

Still, I'd like to hear more from the 'It's terrible' camp.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Your preflop limp is really, really bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's at worst a small mistake and might well be +EV. I can tell you that I like his hand here better than something like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes raise this in a 6 handed game.

[/ QUOTE ]
In middle position after one limper?

[MrStretchie]

Well, I did call down, since the pot was so huge, and there were a couple of other possible hands out there.
BB showed down A/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif to win. Bet the nut flush draw on the turn.
Still, I agree with most that I had to call.
Thanks for all the input!

-Stretch