How did I do?

[Clarkmeister]

I'm all for aggressive play, but on the river I think calling is best when he bets into you yet again. Even a the biggest of fish are capable of putting you AK when you raise on each of the first three streets. Yet he keeps betting. Ask yourself why.

[Jim Easton]

Good raise preflop.
Good raise on the flop.
Good raise on the turn.

I've read Clark's post and agree with his point. So the question is, how well do you do this player? Would he have check raised or 3 bet the turn with aces up or a set? If his play on the turn isn't consistent with Aces up or a set, then the only hand you have to worry about is AK. How would he play that? Would he 3 bet from the BB? Would he check raise or 3 bet the turn with it? If his play isn't consistent with AK either, then you have to think, would he play one of those hands deceptively, not getting in a raise to get you to continue to be agressive?

Further, what does he think you have? Does your flop raise "tell" him overpair? Does he think his ace-rag is better than your big pair?

I think your AQ is good, but if it isn't, mark him as timid or deceptive and watch him to determine which it is.

[Ed Miller]

When you raise the flop, you are representing an overpair, or could be semibluffing a big Ace. Thus, when your opponent bets into you when the Ace comes, it means he has an Ace... as you've just made your hand if you were semibluffing. When your opponent bets into you again on the river after you raise the turn, it means that he has Aces full. You should just call.

[bad beetz]

you gotta wonder why he never check raised.

I'm gonna say he's a poor player and your ahead of his A3s, or A5s

If he's good, your behind and he extracted the most out of you with a really strange play of his hand.

[ZManODS]

I agree with majorking. He probably put you on an Ace so the only real logic is he too has an A, but probably with a weak kicker (which he could of flopped) or a great kicker, namely a King. Youre oppenent probably put you on exactly what you had, an Ace and a good kicker. Knowing this he would be insane to bet into you unless he has Aces Full.

I will not agree with some of the other posts saying youre raise was correct on the flop because you have to think about what youre oppenents may have. As on page 60,61 of HPFAP, many players will play Ax or Ax's especially if they are one of the blinds (which your oppenent was). When a flop of all small numbers comes up, you cant be that happy. Personally you would be better off if the turn and river was a Q.

I would put him on Aces over 2's or Aces over 4's. Had he been Aces over 7's he would have raised till capped on river. Then again there is a chance (if youre oppenent is bad enough)he was going for a flush and continued with his strength on the river, even with a busted hand.

Doesnt look good for you though. Results?

[ZManODS]

you gotta wonder why he never check raised.

He could of been afraid that he might be giving away a free card, so he wanted as much money he thought was possible.
He could of also been afraid of a check-raise re-raise afraid of Aces over 7's.

[Jim Easton]

he would be insane to bet into you unless he has Aces Full.

This is 2/4 online. Insane isn't just possible, it is likely.

As on page 60,61 of HPFAP, many players will play Ax or Ax's especially if they are one of the blinds (which your oppenent was). When a flop of all small numbers comes up, you cant be that happy.

Excellent point. BB didn't seem to play this hand like two pair on the turn. A-rag of hearts seems more likely to me.

[ZManODS]

"Excellent point. BB didn't seem to play this hand like two pair on the turn. A-rag of hearts seems more likely to me."

Very good possibility, but do you think that this player would call a re-raise on the river? Granted by this time the pot-odds are so great, but he has too know at this point that he isnt bluffing. Its best said on page 69 in HEP:
"be aware of the fact that there are times when your oppenent can't be bluffing and must beat your hand. When this happens, do not let the fact that you are getting 20-to-1 pot odds influence you. You are 1000-to-1. Save your money"

[Peter]

2/4 online game.

I raise with A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif after one limper. I'm in CO.
Both blinds call as well as the limper.

Flop: 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

SB checks, BB bets, limper folds and I raise. Only BB calls.

Turn: A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

BB bets, I raise, BB calls.

River: A /forums/images/icons/club.gif

BB bets again, I raise, BB calls.

Comments appreciated.

Peter

[Jim Easton]

Very good possibility, but do you think that this player would call a re-raise on the river?

Easily. How many times have you raised with AK, caught an ace on the flop, and been paid off by ace-rag, or, better yet, by 66? Too many times for me to count.

If BB has a fullhouse, why wouldn't he reraise? If I'm the big blind with A2 or A4, no way I'm afraid of our raiser having A-7. There was already a limper in, so it was a real, rather than a steal raise, no way he has any of that flop. I think the second ace made him discount the possibility of our raiser having one, so he bet again. He called the river because he thinks "3 aces is too good a hand to fold", regardless of the situation. You're right, he should fold, but most low-limit players won't.

If BB does have the boat, our raiser needs to put a note that this is how the BB will play 2 pair, then a boat, and keep it in mind in the future. An opponent who doesn't extract the most with his good hands is nice to have.

[Ed Miller]

I think you are offbase here. His opponent has bet into the preflop raiser on all three streets, despite a board that looks to have hit a preflop raiser hard, and despite being raised every time. I would be very surprised not to see a full house... either a set or Aces full.. from his opponent here.

[Jim Easton]

How does a 2-4-7 flop hit a preflop raiser hard?

I'm not saying BB couldn't have a boat, but if he does, he was too timid.

[Ed Miller]

How does a 2-4-7 flop hit a preflop raiser hard?

*sigh* the Aces...

[bernie]

time to slow down on the river...just call his bet...he isnt folding, and youve represented at least AK or AQ the whole way...

possible hands i think hed have?

A4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , 22, 44..lesser is A7..but doubt it. id think the flopped set first, in looking back at the hand...

i dont see him having A4 different suit or A2 for that matter. he likely wouldnt have bet the flop with only mid or small pair

anything else stonger hed have 3 bet on the flop or turn

think what hed have bet the flop with, first off....then work to the turn...

b

[ZManODS]

Thanks for the support king.

[ZManODS]

wait king... youre on my side right?

[Peter]

Thanks all for the replies. I'm still very uncomfortable putting people on (a range of) hands. Especially when people play differently than I would have had I had that hand. If I would have had two pair or a set in his position, I would have reraised. Since he didn't, I automatically assumed he didn't have any of those hands. So the only hand that would beat me was AK, but he didn't reraise preflop, so again I discarded that hand and figured I should have the best hand.
However, he showed AK and won. I guess I should start paying more attention to how people play, especially to the difference between my and their play.

One more question: I wasn't sure about my flop raise. I find it very difficult to play overcards. I raised so I could take a free card if a blank fell. If someone would have bet then I would have folded. Is that good thinking?

Thanks again,

Peter

[Jim Easton]

If I would have had two pair or a set in his position, I would have reraised. Since he didn't, I automatically assumed he didn't have any of those hands.

Your assumption struck me as correct.

So the only hand that would beat me was AK,

Yep, that was my one concern in my first post. When trying to put him on a hand, you have to use all his actions, not just preflop:

Preflop - call out of BB - this doesn't seem like AK to me;

Flop - lead at the pot - this could be AK, but it could be many other hands, too;

Turn - lead at the pot - I would expect AK to check raise here. If he is concerned the ace might slow you down, betting makes sense, but I would expect a 3 bet;

River - lead at the pot - would he put you on Ace-big and only lead with Ace-big, or is he a fish who says "Yahoo, I have 3 aces, I'm betting" because he has no concept of kicker trouble? There is no shortage of LL online players who would fire away with Ace rag. The question is, is he one of them?

I don't see any strong indications of AK, only the river would give me pause. The important thing is going through the process.

I guess I should start paying more attention to how people play, especially to the difference between my and their play.

Yes, you must know how your opponents play, even if it is "any 2 cards".

One more question: I wasn't sure about my flop raise.

Another poster pointed out the potential for an ace to give another player 2 pair. With that in mind, I think you need to raise AK or AQ at least some of the time to avoid giving away too much information - no raise means big ace, raise means over pair.

I raised so I could take a free card if a blank fell. If someone would have bet then I would have folded. Is that good thinking?

Seems like a perfectly reasonable plan to me.

[Jim Easton]

Sorry to repost so quickly, but I just played a hand that illustrates my "fish will be aggressive even when behind point."

Party Poker 3/6, I'm in MP with KJo. 1 limper, I limp. Fish 1 callsright behind me. Fsh 2 raises. Button cold calls, SB calls, BB calls, limper and I call, Fish 1 raises, all call.

Flop is K <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" /> K <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" /> 7 <img src="/forums/images/icons/spade.gif" alt="" />

Checked to Fish 1, who bets. Fish 2 calls, folded to me, I call. I believe my hand is best.

Turn: 9 <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" />

I check, Fish 1 bets, Fish 2 calls, I raise, Fish 1 reraises, Fish 2 calls, I start to worry about my kicker and just call.

River: 7 <img src="/forums/images/icons/heart.gif" alt="" />

Saved by the board? I bet, Fish 1 raises, Fish 2 calls, I discount the possibility of quads (just not likely) and no way he limp-raises with K-9. I decide the other king and I need to get what we can from the guy without one. I raise, both call.

What did they have?

[ZManODS]

"I wasn't sure about my flop raise. I find it very difficult to play overcards. I raised so I could take a free card if a blank fell. If someone would have bet then I would have folded. Is that good thinking?"

I find playing overcards is very hard. As far as folding on the flop goes, if you raise pre-flop and get some callers dont be afraid if a flop of all small numbers comes up because most likely they wouldnt have it. Dont always assume that though, this is were judgement comes into play. Say if a K comes up and you are holding AQ, you should be less inclined to play. Anyone agree with this..

[Jim Easton]

Fish 1 had 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Fish 2 had 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

No split! I did get lucky, though, hitting one of 7 outs.

[Louie Landale]

The "free" card you may get by raising on the flop figuring to fold on the turn isn't "free": at BEST its "cheap" since it costs a sb (the flop raise) in the hopes of saving a bb (the turn call). If you are sure the turn call isn't worth it (to see the river card) then there is a good chance that the flop raise isn't worth it (to see the river card).

This "Free" card stuff is best reserved for when you intend to get to the showdown pretty-much regardless of the betting.

Having said that, there are other reasons and combinations of reasons to raise weakly like that on the flop. Perhaps your flop raise will PREVENT him from ever bluffing for the rest of the hand, so yo can confidently lay your hand down when he does bet (later, if ever) (that is, you "gain information" or "manipulate the opponent").

But lets get back to this hand. I read your Results. You negelected to combine your analysis of what he probably does NOT have ("doesn't have AK") with analysis of what he MAY have. So even if you figure (rightfully or wrongfully) that he probably doesn't have AK or a full house (since YOU wouldn't play those hands the way he did), you still need to consider what he MAY have in order to justify your raise. He obviously has an Ace; so you need to determine if he really WOULD bet out with AJ or AT (the hands you hope he has) on the flop into the pre-flop raiser. That's not out of the question, but surely he isn't going to bet out lesser Aces. Then you need to compare the chances he has these hands AND plays them that way, with the chances he really has you beat and plays them THAT way.

He could easily have flopped a set or turned Aces-Up, and just keeps betting when his hand improves. That's reasonably likely, even if you think he "should always" 3-bet along the way with any of those hands. This player has bet often enough to tell you that you are probably beat.

Summarize: I see two mistakes [1] didn't consider what he needs to have to justify your raises [2] discounted his possible hands based on the way YOU would have played it if YOU had HIS hand; rather on the way HE actually plays.

Like Spock said ..err.. well he should have said: "Its the improbable when the only alternative is the impossible".

- Louie