Fold KK to this river bet?

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1005)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t670)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t790)
MP3 (t795)
Hero (t990)
Button (t755)
SB (t595)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, Button calls t90, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t75, MP3 calls t75.

Flop: (t380) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t380) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, Button calls t100, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t100.

River: (t680) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t400</font>, MP3 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1082.50

<font color="blue"> My thoughts were that this bet was a little large for someone trying to extract 'value.' In otherwords, the bet looked like a buy. If he had a Jack, I would have paid him ~150 to see his jack, and that seemed like the right amount for someone to bet. Thoughts?</font>

[johnnybeef]

why the hell didnt you bet that flop?

[wuwei]

I think the way you played the hand (flop check, small turn bet), there are a lot more hands than a J that will make this river bet.

[yid3655]

I would definately be calling the river bet, I would assume he doesnt have a jack based on the fact he flat called your 100 bet with possible flush and straight draws with 2 people left to act. The bet on the end looks too big for a jack.

Why didnt you bet the river?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
why the hell didnt you bet that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just hope he didn't have 56......

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the way you played the hand (flop check, small turn bet), there are a lot more hands than a J that will make this river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

B, I guess I agree with you here. In fact, I've taken this line myself. Lately though, I've been calling these hands and, surprise, they have something like J2. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Reflecting back, my turn bet would have been more appropriate on the flop.

[Sykes]

Raise to 60 pre-flop. No reason to put 1/8th of your stack in if you can't play post-flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 60 pre-flop. No reason to put 1/8th of your stack in if you can't play post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 60 pre-flop. No reason to put 1/8th of your stack in if you can't play post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. That's what I call a tough love way to say "bet the flop."

[EricW]

What's the deal with letting 4 people see the turn? The way I see it, if you make a half sized pot bet, or even a pot sized bet on the flop, you can have a better idea of where you stand, and you also force guys with draws to get out.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the deal with letting 4 people see the turn? The way I see it, if you make a half sized pot bet, or even a pot sized bet on the flop, you can have a better idea of where you stand, and you also force guys with draws to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's pros and cons to this. Particularly the pot-sized bet. If it were deeped stacked, no problem.

[Phoenix1010]

Well, it's been said already but the way you played it was basically doing whatever you could to induce a bluff on the end. If check the flop and bet 1/4th pot on a blank turn, then check again on the river, you have to call any reasonable bet on the end. The fact that it was a large overbet (relative to the previous action) despite the fact that no one has shown any strength should make you even more inclined to call. You alluded to this in your blue writing, if it looks like a buy, why are you folding?

Ugh, unfourtunately, I'd probably still think about folding the river if I played it the way you did. A lot of players like to get tricky with their monsters and overbet when they think a small value bet won't get called by a marginal hand, but a large overbet might attract someone eager to pick off a bluff. I'm pretty sure I'd end up calling though.

-Phoenix

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's the deal with letting 4 people see the turn? The way I see it, if you make a half sized pot bet, or even a pot sized bet on the flop, you can have a better idea of where you stand, and you also force guys with draws to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's pros and cons to this. Particularly the pot-sized bet. If it were deeped stacked, no problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually look at the opposite way. If we were playing deeper stacks, I might have time to worry about someone having 77, one of the two jacks still in the deck, or AA. But in a small stack Party game, I can't worry much about this. I have a strong hand and I'm not going to allow the biggest penis in the universe to go limp out of fear of those few hands.

I'm going to bet that flop 90% of the time, and if I checked it would be solely with the purpose of getting all my chips in later on in the hand once someone has had time to do some catching up. Once I bet that flop, my pot commitment is clear, and I'm calling a c/r because people bluff or have a weak hand they think is good in this case enough to make it pay off in this size of a pot.

The only way I'm getting away is if there's significant action from players I trust. A bet and a reraise would give me pause.

This attitude might be a leak of mine, but I doubt it.

That being said, J2? Jeez...

[45suited]

I guess I'm the only one that likes the fold. Yes, given the way you played the hand, it practically asked for someone to bluff the river, but I don't think it's so hard to believe that button has a jack given the way the hand played out. The flop was very drawless and on the turn, his call seems like he was just looking for overcalls from MP1 and MP3. (Moreover, it's not like the board paired 4s. You had 3 callers and the board paired jacks.) It was still a fairly safe board at that point, even with the two hearts.

You fold here and you're still in fine position with a healthy stack. That combined with the fact that I actually think that it's likely that you're beat makes me like the fold, even though I'm sure someone will accuse me of being weak-tight now because of this. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif