SNGs v. Cash

[microbet]

A little frustrated with a short run of SNGs and I decided to 4 table $25NL.

It sure was easy, and not just easy money. It was easy money, although the stakes were very low. You get 100BBs. It was like all pre-level 1. Seems like 8 tabling those games would be easier than 4 tabling SNGs.

[Seth Money]

I agree with the 25 NL. It's funny cause every once and a while I will sit down in a 25 NL 6 max table and play every hand for the first 10 minutes, just to give the table a sense that I want action and within an hour will have doubled up what I have or more. In one 1 hour session I sat down with 25 and left with 176. And well its nice to be able to do something away from the SnG's every once and a while

[Angelic_Ace]

For me -

SNG's 4-tabling for online

NL cash games for live

[kamrann]

I don't how long you've been playing online for, but it's been about 3 years for me, and I've found that as long as I stick to one type of game long enough, I'll always end up asking that question about another variety after a while.

I've beaten all the games and levels I've played at online for the full three years, but after a while always decided I wasn't beating them enough ($/hr) to accept the boredom level. So I go from NL cash to MTTs to limit cash, from Holdem to Omaha and back, back to NL cash, etc. I've lost track of the number of times I've been fooled into thinking there was more to be made in a different game, just because I switched for a short while and had success over a totally insignificant sample size. The latest for me is multi-tabling the Party SNGs. Once again I really thought I'd found where the easy money was at, until hitting my current 40 buyin drop decimated my $/hr.

Maybe I'm just not as good as I thought. Maybe I need to get luckier. /images/graemlins/wink.gif But more to the point, I think that in any form of poker, the $EV edge you have over the poor, and even awful player, is simply a lot smaller than you might expect it to be. Switch to $25 NL if you feel like it, but it probably won't end up being very different at all as far as $/hr.

As for your specific point about how easy to multi-table, I would guess that low limit NL cash and PP SNGs (below 215s) are roughly eually easy to multi-table, since 90% of your earning power comes from straight-forward mechanical play without really having to think.

BTW, the fact you mentioned $25 NL suggests to me you're playing low buyin SNGs currently, which would surprise me since you're one of the posters whose opinions I've most respected since coming to this board a few months back. Not that low limit player' opinions shouldn't be respected of course, it's just I had you in my mind as one of the $215'ers.

[chisness]

when i was deciding between cash games and sngs to multi table, it seemed that sngs would be a lot easier because you're not involved in many postflop pots

sngs involve almost always either folding or pushing preflop, which makes them a lot easier to manage

remembering who raised preflop, how all opponents play preflop, and all the other difficult postflop intricacies seems like it'd be very hard if doing over 4 cash games (though 8 or fewer full table games would probably be manageable)

[OrcaDK]

I 12 tabled NL25 at my old 17" TFT without problems, i'm having a tough time 6 tabling $20's. No doubt i can 12 table the $20's in time, but it's just a lot tougher than the NL25 IMHO.

[MegaBet]

You're right, the 25NL games are a doddle. Unlike SNGs, you can afford to sit and wait for a big hand, and more than likely you'll get action on it. The trick I use is when I double up my initial buy in, I bank it and move on to another table. It's just too easy to lose the whole lot to a bad beat or bad read on 1 hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

Kamrann, the same is true of any profession. I feel bad that you find boredom in poker. But, IMO, the best way to approach anything, and particularly poker, is TO GO A MILE DEEP, AND NOT A MILE WIDE. The fact that you have played so many games, styles, etc., you've become a jack of all trades. Good at all, specialist in none.

Just my two cents.

Scuba

[freemoney]

i think theres alot more money in SnGs comparatively then cash games.

[microbet]

I wasn't really thinking it would have a substantially different $/hr, but just that it was easier. 8-tabling SNGs on level 1 would be cake most of the time. Push/fold at the later levels is pretty automatic, but you are still playing a lot of hands and at least considering playing most hands.

As far as what buyin SNGs I play, it is $33 or $55 at the moment. I have been doing well and moving up and hope/expect to keep moving up, but I can only play about 200 SNGs a month because of work and kids, so it will take a while. I certainly appreciate your respect though. I am old and have played some poker for a long time.

I know you weren't bashing on low limit players, so this isn't an argument or anything. There are definitely some awesome posters/players here in the lower buyins and there are a few higher buyin players.......well, I think you know what I mean.

[Vetstadium]

My bread and butter are SNG's but do need to take a break once in awhile and play limit, no limit cash and multi tourns.

[lacky]

Having knowledge of only one form of poker, particularly sng's, is very limiting to having a deeper understanding of this game. While you can win in sng's without a deep knowledge of NL ring, your play will be much better with it. Lets face it, poker isnt rocket science. Nothing prevent a person from having deep knowlege in several forms of this game. If/when you have that range of knowledge, you will realize that the same underlying principles apply to all the games. Thats why the top pro's can play all the events at the wsop.

Steve

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
A little frustrated with a short run of SNGs and I decided to 4 table $25NL.

It sure was easy, and not just easy money. It was easy money, although the stakes were very low. You get 100BBs. It was like all pre-level 1. Seems like 8 tabling those games would be easier than 4 tabling SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have had the exact same feeling lately, after a few bad SNG sessions. I multitabled a few $50 NL 10 handed, and i won enough to cover most of my SNG looses over the last week. I agree that they are quite easy.

However i think i will stick with SNG's as my main game, but might use money game as a game to play when i am having a bad run in SNG's.

[microbet]

I guess the $100NL is more like the $33-$55 buyin, but I'm not gonna jump into 4 tabling it on the first night.

[kamrann]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't really thinking it would have a substantially different $/hr, but just that it was easier. 8-tabling SNGs on level 1 would be cake most of the time. Push/fold at the later levels is pretty automatic, but you are still playing a lot of hands and at least considering playing most hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but surely the method of play when sitting deep in NL cash is not the same as when deep in the early stages of a SNG? In cash games your money is in implied odds, which comes from seeing lots of flops with hands you would insta-fold in a SNG, and doing this is not easy when 4 or 8 tabling. Then again, I don't know about the 25NL, it's possible it's so weak you just have to tighten up and only play premiums..? You may be right though certainly when 8-tabling SNGs it can get tough as the bubble approaches on multiple tables.

[ QUOTE ]
I can only play about 200 SNGs a month because of work and kids

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I figured it was probably that. I guess I sometimes forget that not everyone is a poker bum without responsibilities. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Good luck with keeping moving on up.

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, the fact you mentioned $25 NL suggests to me you're playing low buyin SNGs currently, which would surprise me since you're one of the posters whose opinions I've most respected since coming to this board a few months back. Not that low limit player' opinions shouldn't be respected of course, it's just I had you in my mind as one of the $215'ers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too am guilty of this. Low limit players do spark good discussions, but it seems most of the really deep posts come from those who play much higher limits. I always figured with the quality of your posts micro, that you were a 215'er.

Now that we know you play below the 215 level don't let the quality of your posts slide. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[microbet]

I think it is correct to loosen up in the NL cash game compared to the early levels of a SNG. This is partly because of the lower value of additional chips in a tourney, but also because the stacks are deeper. But still, as you noted, nothing compared to level 4+ play in an SNG.

A lot of it has to do with the number of players seated. I was in one cash game last night that got down to 3 players for a while and I was playing most of the hands.

The implied odds, at least last night, were indeed huge.

[kamrann]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel bad that you find boredom in poker. But, IMO, the best way to approach anything, and particularly poker, is TO GO A MILE DEEP, AND NOT A MILE WIDE. The fact that you have played so many games, styles, etc., you've become a jack of all trades. Good at all, specialist in none.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you may be right. However, I think to an extent you become a more complete poker player by learning various games. Well, I guess that's obvious. What I really mean is that I think by learning new games or structures, you learn more about some of the things and skills that are necessary across all forms of poker.

Also, I wouldn't say I was a jack of all trades, because I feel MTTs are my strong point, and are certainly where I've had the majority of my success. However, I've always been somewhat irresponsible with my bankroll, such that when I have success I move up and go for broke. I'm happy to do things this way because I find it more fun, and it's not a total disaster if I go broke. For example, in Vegas last December, I cashed in two large NL MTTs at the Bellagio festival, and immediately fed the profits into playing the 15k main event, where I got busted (and rubbed down) by Hellmuth. But having not had that real break on the occasions I have been close to huge cashes, I inevitably find myself having to play more boring (to me) forms of poker again to rebuild the bankroll, since the variance in MTTs is too high.

Regarding the boredom, I didn't mean to say that I find poker boring in general. Far from it, I love the game and still enjoy playing live, especially MTTs. But online has become more and more for the money. Can you honestly say you enjoy the time you spend 4 tabling or 8 tabling Party SNGs, assuming you do do this? Along with low limit NL cash, I think it's the most monotonous form of poker.

[freemoney]

Also I think it will definitely improve your SnG game taking a month or so and playing NL ring...

[Maulik]

I've taken a SNG break myself for a while. After playing 500 $33s in one week some time ago, I found myself tired of this grind. I've found myself playing cash games of NLHE, LHE, Omaha Hi, etc.

This past weekend my friends convinced me to join a 2 way O8 & Stud 8 or better game, first time. I was able to learn the weakness of my opponents and exploit them. This is what poker is and game of incomplete information and using them to your benefit, yada.
Learning other games gives you the oppurtunity to do so and gives you a break from the grind.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
Kamrann, the same is true of any profession. I feel bad that you find boredom in poker. But, IMO, the best way to approach anything, and particularly poker, is TO GO A MILE DEEP, AND NOT A MILE WIDE. The fact that you have played so many games, styles, etc., you've become a jack of all trades. Good at all, specialist in none.

Just my two cents.

Scuba

[/ QUOTE ]

Last March, at the European Poker Tour finals in Monte Carlo, the players ate together every night at a buffet
provided by the organizers at the Cafe de Paris across from
the Casino. I had the pleasure (and privilege) of sitting next to Greg "Fossilman" Raymer each night. Prior to that
time, I had focused almost exclusively on NL sit and gos
and MTTs. I was thinking about playing some limit and no
limit ring games on line and mabey some Omaha Hi-Lo 8 too
when I returned home, but at the same time I thought that
if I want to improve, perhaps I should focus on a single form
of poker, such as NL sit and gos. My goal is not simply to
make a few bucks online, but rather, to become a world class
player.

So I asked Greg for his recommendation. Should I focus on a
single game to reach mastery, or would I be better served by
branching out and learning to play a variety of games? Greg
strongly recommended that I branch out, and play both limit
and NL ring Hold 'em and Omaha and 7 stud. He explained to me how all the games
are related.....they are all poker, don't think of them as
separate games....and how working to improve and to beat one
form helps you to become stronger at the others too. It's
good advice.

Ever notice how the world class players, although they may
be specialists in one form or another, are basically world
class at all the games? There is a reason for that!

Suerte,
Jonathan

[Maulik]

microbet as far as cash games go, if you're willing to switch up your raises and make continuation bets, you'll find the NL100 tables juicy.