JJ with a largeish stack in the 200k

[bugstud]

if you've seen the post in the thread, forgive me. I had a major issue of figuring out what line to take here. So let's discuss it.

220 left, 120 pay, 42k to first. Recently moved to the table, probably only an orbit in and nothing seems to absurd.

Folded to the Hijack (9850) who opens to 1100 at the 150/300 level. You are next in the CO (9141) with JJ. Do you reraise here, or call and see the flop?






That's decision point one. Assuming a call...here is decision point two.

Flop 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He bets 1k. What now? He now has 7750 behind and you have 8041 before taking action here.

[IHateKeithSmart]

I would have reraised PF. Assuming the call, it looks like a standard continuation bet, would reraise here, to say 2500.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have reraised PF. Assuming the call, it looks like a standard continuation bet, would reraise here, to say 2500.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's the problem with that. If he calls...what does that tell you about his hand? Jack squat. That small of a raise means pretty much any pair and all overcards will still probably call...and I don't feel real great about folding to a push there.

[billyjex]

well i saw the results but i'll try to be unbiased here.

I like a call here PF. I want to be able to get away from the hand if an ugly flop comes.. also, if we were to reraise here and he calls and ugly flop comes the pot will be so big it will be hard to get away from.

By keeping the pot smallish we can also try to buy it on the flop if it's an ugly flop that scares him.

Now after you called.. I always reraise here. He could easily be on overcards and by "slowplaying" your JJ (basically letting him bet for you) you will be in a very tricky spot if an A/K/Q comes. Basically, I want this pot on the flop. I would repop it to 3000 or so and call a push.

[bobbycharles]

It's been folded around to the better and he makes about a standard raise. There's as good a chance he's on a steal as he has a hand. I smooth call and hopefully he starts to sweat a little wondering what I have.

After his continuation bet, I raise the pot. My guess is he folds. If he has AA - QQ, oh well, but he probably doesn't have a 3.

[bugstud]

so here's another angle: how do I make the most off the hands I'm crushing?

[SparkyDog]

I don't think the villian holds many hands that you're absolutely crushing. Besides, with the pot at 3.5k it's big enough to want to take down right then and there and add ~30% to your stack. The only hands I would like to see Villian call with are underpairs to your JJ and he may not fold those to a pot sized raise anyways.

But I wouldn't really mind if he folded everything else like two overcards, or even an overcard with a backdoor draw or two.

[MLG]

Decision point 1:
Either a call or reraise is fine here, its a style thing. I reraise more frequently because I also repop it with crap, but your stack size is very very tricky. Any reraise pretty much commits you, and a push is a massive overbet. So if I repop it I make it 3k to go planning on either calling a push or pushing any flop that's checked to me.

Decision Point 2.
I call here. Raising commits you and only brings along overpairs (and maybe 1010/99). I call and bet 2k on the turn if he checks. If an overcard hits and he bets again you have given yourself a much tougher decision, but that's the price of doing bussiness, decide based on any read you have and bet size. Generally I'd fold to an A/K and call against a Q (although I'd fold to a river bet). Raising the flop works too, but I think calling is better.

[kuro]

[ QUOTE ]
I call here. Raising commits you and only brings along overpairs (and maybe 1010/99). I call and bet 2k on the turn if he checks. If an overcard hits and he bets again you have given yourself a much tougher decision, but that's the price of doing bussiness, decide based on any read you have and bet size. Generally I'd fold to an A/K and call against a Q (although I'd fold to a river bet). Raising the flop works too, but I think calling is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally raise the flop because if a spade or an overcard comes on the turn (18 outs) I've got no clue where I stand. If you flat call what do you do when a spade falls and villain checks or bets? Am I missing out on too much value by raising the flop?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Decision point 1:
Either a call or reraise is fine here, its a style thing. I reraise more frequently because I also repop it with crap, but your stack size is very very tricky. Any reraise pretty much commits you, and a push is a massive overbet. So if I repop it I make it 3k to go planning on either calling a push or pushing any flop that's checked to me.

Decision Point 2.
I call here. Raising commits you and only brings along overpairs (and maybe 1010/99). I call and bet 2k on the turn if he checks. If an overcard hits and he bets again you have given yourself a much tougher decision, but that's the price of doing bussiness, decide based on any read you have and bet size. Generally I'd fold to an A/K and call against a Q (although I'd fold to a river bet). Raising the flop works too, but I think calling is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

it just felt so CSC-ish... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[rgschackelford]

I'm putting the guy on two unimproved high cards, and trying to buy the pot. That's how I'd act with AK, AQ, KQs, and hands of the like. Probably not betting a draw, (unless he has two high spades, which isn't likely). AA or KK might be played in a trickier manner. Here's something to think about. If he had a made hand (high pair or better) would he be betting the preflop raise, or would he entice you to call? I would push all-in on this one, and pray his high-cards don't hit (or in best case, he folds!).

[Jason Strasser]

MLG,

[ QUOTE ]
Either a call or reraise is fine here, its a style thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a reraise is better than a call, given a typical wide CO range of hands, more on that later.

[ QUOTE ]
Any reraise pretty much commits you, and a push is a massive overbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree then disagree. Pushing isn't a huge overbet here, and there are some clear benefits to it. A decent reraise here is to 3-4k, which is almost half your stack, so especially against some loose competition that will give you action pf all in with TT and worse, but might fold hands like KQ, a push has merit.

Regardless, I think your preflop ideas are more or less in line with mine. But...

[ QUOTE ]
Raising commits you and only brings along overpairs (and maybe 1010/99). I

[/ QUOTE ]

Big problems here. First of all, dont assume any pair will fold on this flop, it obviously depends on the opponent. But there is a flush draw out there and people like to be hero's with a flush draw on the board. The key here is that raising will bring along worse hands (as well as overpairs), but more importantly hands like AQ, KQ, A2, blah blah will fold. A very important concept is that, because survival is a premium in tourney poker, that it is your duty to get hands that will not give you any further action in the hand, to fold.

You have JJ on a 733 flop with 2.5k in the pot and 7k behind against a CO open raise. If he has a bigger pair so be it, go broke or spike a J. You really cant be worried about overpairs coming along here, its just not deep enough. It's far more important IMO to raise to protect this big pot from hands that I mentioned earlier... And also for value.

[ QUOTE ]
If an overcard hits and he bets again you have given yourself a much tougher decision, but that's the price of doing bussiness, decide based on any read you have and bet size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep your blood pressure lower, raise the flop.

If you are still hung up on calling the flop, I think you'll have to do some more to try to convince me otherwise.

-Jason

[bugstud]

appreciate the in depth reply a lot here Strassa.

I dunno how to explain it, but at the time I felt I was probably ahead and thought that call and letting him spray off chips was better than raising him off his hand, but I after this discussion I'm seeing both lines have merit. Really wish I had been at the table longer than a couple hands /images/graemlins/mad.gif



random results were his underpair (55) spiking a turn 5. I didn't go broke on the hand but quickly donkbusted thereafter. Tough to say if he calls the raise on the flop with 55 there, but we'll never know.

[Stipe_fan]

What kind of flop do you want. I assume you internally said to yourself you would play on post flop if no overs hit. Why else would you play this hand?

I try to think a few steps ahead. If no overs hit and he bets, then I would reraise hit the min of t1000. Your playing JJ as an overpair.

I agree that reraising doesn't do too much. He will definitely call with a range of hands. But, if you reraise pf, and the flop comes out rags, then your opponent will almost be wrong to fold since he will only have T5000 and the pot would be T6000.

So, the way I see it, you should reraise pf and then play on if no overs hit. If you make it T2500 to go pf, the pot would be T5500 and I still think you could get away it after the flop if overs hit the board.

Stipe

[Depalma]

[ QUOTE ]
A very important concept is that, because survival is a premium in tourney poker, that it is your duty to get hands that will not give you any further action in the hand, to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Highlighting this quote in case others missed it amid the longer post.

Great stuff Strassa2

[MLG]

I think its a good point about not getting more from overcards anyway unless they improve to beat you. I hear what bugstud is saying though about feeling like raising the flop only gets called by hands that beat you. Thing is and i don't think about this enough.....this is party and im constantly amazed by what im called with. I'm gonna say that strassa is probably righter than me here with these stacks. bastard.

[PrayingMantis]

My opinion is that if you only call PF, you should generally be ready to commit yourself on such a flop. I don't like calling his bet on the flop, because your hand, if ahead, is very vulnerable, plus since you only called PF, villain can put you on a wide-ish range, and play along with more hands that are behind/drawing.

Only If you have a good enough read then you might want to call on the flop, and take the more tricky, dangarous, way.

[CieloAzor]

Preflop's the tougher decision to me. Because of the tricky stack sizes, I'd usually flat call.

On the flop, after he bets 1k, I'm willing to go broke. I'd try to raise an amount that entices a push from my opponent. In other words, I try to make it look like I'm buying the pot and I make it look like he has fold equity. I expect him to push any pair, and a lot of random high-card hands. The pot's rather comely, and a flop that ugly breeds distrust and makes people do some stupid things.