Flopping bottom two-pair when defending against a LAG...

[chesspain]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

As I struggle to get to break-even in 3/6 after approx 15K hands, I realize that one leak I must have is failing to squeeze every bit of profit from my winning hands while spending more money than necessary on my losing hands. I think that the following hand would be a good place for me to get a check-up from all of you.

The opponent is 28/7/2.5 after eighty hands.

Preflop: chesspain is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, chesspain calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, chesspain calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, CO calls.

River: (10.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">chesspain bets</font> and intends to call a raise...

[MHarris]

Nicely done. I couldn't imagine playing this differently.

[chesspain]

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Nicely done. I couldn't imagine playing this differently.

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Even the preflop call?

[spamuell]

I think your post-flop play is good but I'd fold pre-flop.

[milesdyson]

what about bet/3-betting the turn? if he just calls the turn bet, you check raise the river, because it looks like he has a pair he'd be very willing to value bet.

[spamuell]

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what about bet/3-betting the turn?

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Once you're raised on the turn, I don't think you're ahead 66% of the time, so you can't 3-bet for value. So checkraising the turn is the same as betting and then checkraising the river except when he has KJ, KK, QQ type hands and an A falls on the river you frequently miss 2 bets.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
...but I'd fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would have folded this a few months ago. But I've been attempting more recently to shore up my blind defense play--and this seemed like a hand which would be easy to get away from if I missed, while offering me the opportunity to win some serious bets if I flopped a great hand or a great draw, since my hand would obviously be well-disguised.

[milesdyson]

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what about bet/3-betting the turn?

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Once you're raised on the turn, I don't think you're ahead 66% of the time, so you can't 3-bet for value. So checkraising the turn is the same as betting and then checkraising the river except when he has KJ, KK, QQ type hands and an A falls on the river you frequently miss 2 bets.

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yeah i agree, but you really think he has JJ that often when he raises the turn?

[spamuell]

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...but I'd fold pre-flop.

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I think I would have folded this a few months ago. But I've been attempting more recently to shore up my blind defense play--

[/ QUOTE ]

I defend my blind way more than I did a few months ago as well, mainly as a result of playing 6-max. It makes me realise how much I sucked at full ring play when folded to in LP and against steals (I still do but less).

But the hands I've loosened up with are mainly higher card hands which I would fold out of an irrational fear of domination because a CO's open-raising standards are quite wide. Things like Q9o. I don't think 64s is a good hand to defend with, you rarely flop a hand that you can extract much with but you're pretty much paying off whenever you flop a pair and it's the worst hand.

I don't think it being very easy to get away from if you miss is a good thing, if you're calling and then check-folding lots of flops, it's going to be very hard to show a profit, especially when your reverse implied odds aren't great.

And yeah you can flop a lot of draws and play them hard, but you're going to get called down by A-high here most of the time when there's a flush draw so you're frequently going to spew chips everywhere and on a board where you flop a straight draw like 358, your opponent might just call you down anyway because the board is so raggy you could easily try to be putting a move on them thinking it couldn't have hit them.

Another idea I've been toying with because Stellarwind mentions it sometimes is that your opponent has more chances to hit than you, because you're often going to be checkfolding the flop whereas they are basically always going to see a turn.

Also the 1/3 blind structure at 3/6 coupled with the relatively high rake makes this a pretty easy muck for me.

[spamuell]

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what about bet/3-betting the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you're raised on the turn, I don't think you're ahead 66% of the time, so you can't 3-bet for value. So checkraising the turn is the same as betting and then checkraising the river except when he has KJ, KK, QQ type hands and an A falls on the river you frequently miss 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah i agree, but you really think he has JJ that often when he raises the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I don't get raised on this turn very often by one pair, maybe not. Also consider he could have 66. But these hands are unlikely (in terms of the number of combinations of them) compared to big jacks or overpairs when we bet turn, and some players do just get very aggro in blind steal situations. So I don't know, maybe not.

But the thing about missing 2 bets on the river when it's an A still applies. Although I suppose you just bet it. So it's one bet you miss, 3/46ths of the time.

So it all depends on how much he raises the turn with a worse hand, I don't know what the average amount is at 3/6 but I'd guess it's not that high.

[MHarris]

I was referring to postflop, not even thinking about the PF call.

Against the right player, I don't mind the call. I'm not so sure this is the right player, since you'll probably run into problems trying to steal this pot when you miss.

[milesdyson]

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what about bet/3-betting the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you're raised on the turn, I don't think you're ahead 66% of the time, so you can't 3-bet for value. So checkraising the turn is the same as betting and then checkraising the river except when he has KJ, KK, QQ type hands and an A falls on the river you frequently miss 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah i agree, but you really think he has JJ that often when he raises the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I don't get raised on this turn very often by one pair, maybe not. Also consider he could have 66. But these hands are unlikely (in terms of the number of combinations of them) compared to big jacks or overpairs when we bet turn, and some players do just get very aggro in blind steal situations. So I don't know, maybe not.

But the thing about missing 2 bets on the river when it's an A still applies. Although I suppose you just bet it. So it's one bet you miss, 3/46ths of the time.

So it all depends on how much he raises the turn with a worse hand, I don't know what the average amount is at 3/6 but I'd guess it's not that high.

[/ QUOTE ]
i totally get what you're saying. i've only played short handed 1/2 and 2/4 and i would get raised by AA/KK/QQ/AJ here a decent amount of time in blind steal situations (plus this guy has a pretty decent AF), but this is full ring 3/6 and perhaps you're right about the turn raise.

i agree that with a better read of the opponent we could optimize the play, and that against someone about whom all we know is that he's x/x/x, the postflop line in this hand appears to be best.

[mdeck]

I like your line here. The turn c/r slows him down quite a bit. At first I was inclined to believe you could get more out of him with a bet/3bet, but since he is fairly aggressive facing a turn cap would suck.

Regardless of turn play I like your river line as well.

Nice hand.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I prefer a fold preflop, this is not a good hand to defend with. Post-flop is perfect.

[Nick C]

One thing I wish is that I had a better sense of which hands to defend with.

I do defend with a hand like 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif sometimes, largely because suited one-gappers are among the hands HPFAP recommends defending with, versus an aggressive stealer.

However, most Party 3/6 players don't steal as aggressively as the opponent described in the short-handed section of HPFAP. (So maybe it's fortunate for me that low/medium suited connectors make up such a small percentage of the hands we're dealt.)

Anyway, I agree with the consensus that postflop looks good in this hand.

[chesspain]

HEFAP recommends defending in the BB, against aggressive opponents, with hands such as any "...straight flush combination with no gaps or just one gap (except for 42s and 32s)." [pg. 187].

Does the fact that this was a openraise from the CO really turn this from a call to a fold? Or would people be folding this hand even to a button raise despite the advice from S&amp;M?

[chesspain]

Opponent folded to my river bet...suggesting that either he overplayed AK on the flop, or he made a super amazing laydown with an overpair.

[Moneyline]

Because of the blind structure in 3/6, you don't have to defend your blinds as liberally as you would playing 2/4 or 4/8. Since there is less money in the pot, you can tighten up on the hands that you'll defend and steal with. In a normal 2: 1 structure defending with 64s is borderline at best. Playing 15/30 with a 3: 2 blind structure I think you can justify a call. Playing 3/6 with a 3: 1 blind structure makes this an easy fold.

Just my opinion...

[colgin]

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As I struggle to get to break-even in 3/6 after approx 15K hands, . . .

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Chess, I have no doubt you are a winner in this game although your results might not show it yet. Break-even (or, ugh, losing stretches) can go quite a while, as you know.

As for the hand, you should fold pre-flop but the rest of the hand looks about perfect! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif