Standard right?

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.70 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

No reads. If you believe in timing reads he paused a bit before the river 3-bet.

Krishan

[face41]

i think u should 3 bet flop 50% of the time. you should always raise that turn. and play for 1 bet on the river. i have no idea what you were thinking on ure river line ? now every feasible hand has u beat. y do uy raise this river what hands do u gain value from ?

[WarBus]

I would raise the turn. I don't like raising a river with 3 broadway cards showing.

[Surfbullet]

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I would raise the turn. I don't like raising a river with 3 broadway cards showing.

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I agree...definitely fold to the river 3bet. I don't like the river raise at all though, so many of his openraising hands are now ahead of you.

Surf

[krishanleong]

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I would raise the turn. I don't like raising a river with 3 broadway cards showing.

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I agree...definitely fold to the river 3bet. I don't like the river raise at all though, so many of his openraising hands are now ahead of you.

Surf

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He cold-called.

Krishan

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I would raise the turn. I don't like raising a river with 3 broadway cards showing.

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I agree...definitely fold to the river 3bet. I don't like the river raise at all though, so many of his openraising hands are now ahead of you.

Surf

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He cold-called.

Krishan

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Good point. Yay reading ability!

The point still stands IMHO...the river card makes a large # of 2pair hands possible that are all likely holdings - broadway cards, strong enough to cold-call, not strong enough to reraise. We're not really fearing QQ obviously, but hands like QJ and KQ abound.

Surf

[spamuell]

No I don't think it's standard, I think you should raise the turn, he's not folding worse K or J here or a draw but he might get scared and check to you on the river with a pair, this happens all the time at 5/10 when he has a J.

I think sometimes calling the turn and raising the river is a form of subtle tilt which comes from constantly being 3-bet when you raise the turn and losing lots, you know you need to get one more bet in but you think you'll wait till the river because it's unlikely that you're going to get 3-bet by a slightly better hand there. The thing is, you're frequently missing bets by doing this because of getting checked to on the river with worse hands or because they have a draw and just check-fold the river once you are clearly calling down.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
No I don't think it's standard, I think you should raise the turn, he's not folding worse K or J here or a draw but he might get scared and check to you on the river with a pair, this happens all the time at 5/10 when he has a J.

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I don't think he has a draw. If there were two flush I might give it more credence. I think he has a K, J, then draw. Some chance at a set or 2 pair.

Raising the river isn't tilt. It's a way to give you an extra card against two pair/avoid 3-bets. But you know all this. This isn't a heavy enough draw board.

What happens if you get 3-bet on the turn? You have to call to your 2 pair outs on the turn. Do you feel comfortable folding the river for 1 in a large pot? I think folding to a river 3-bet is much more foolproof.

Krishan

[spamuell]

This is what I'm talking about. All too often I think there's this fear of being 3-bet on the turn for the reasons you said, because we just hate being 3-bet and then having to call for our 2 pair outs and then folding the river for one bet in a big pot with top pair, never mind tptk.

But the fact is, you get 3-bet on the turn by only a very small proportion of hands that will checkraise that flop (KJ basically or a tricky pf KK or JJ which are very unlikely) but you get checked to on the river by a much larger amount (most Js) because they're scared you have a better hand.

The reason I said it was "subtle tilt" is because I think we (I certainly do) remember all those times I get 3-bet on the turn and call down like a fool or fold the river and doubt myself and in order to not risk that happening, I opt to wait till the river to raise instead. But I think you just have to bite the bullet and risk the 3-bet here on the turn because you get checked to on the river far more often than you are 3-bet on the turn, in my experience. So you give up too much by not raising the turn.

[krishanleong]

I think this is a good time to use the raise the river line. I wasn't afraid of a turn cr.

You also don't include the times he is bluffing and continues to bluff the river or the times he has a J and folds the turn.

Krishan

[Alobar]

I like raising the turn better. I'm not worried about folding to a 3 bet because there arent any other 2 pair holdings hes going to have besides KJ, and I wont have the odds to chase my 3 outter. My only fear is if hes holding AK and 3 bets me on the turn and I fold. But if hes not aggresive enough to cap AK pf, he prolly isnt aggresive enough to 3 bet me on the turn with it.

I think most likley you are looking at KQ, KJ, AK, AJ, QT, 55, and could even be weaker hands like KT, K9 And I'd rather raise the turn because, I can fold to a turn 3 bet, I get another bet from him all the times he wimps out on the river and checks his crap K, or even his KQ (it happens), and then obviously gets the extra bet from QT if thats the case.

FWIW, had I decided to wait till the river to raise, that Q would have changed my plan. It eliminates me being ahead of one of his more likely holdings (KQ) and with that much paint on the board I think its less likely you get called by worse kings, and def not AJ