quote

[Nick B.]

Here is a quote from a full tilt prolesson which I think applies to this forum.

"How much of a difference is there between ring game strategy and tournament strategy?

The answer: Not as much as you think.

Before you worry about adjusting for tournaments, concentrate on adjusting for the other players. The most important skill in poker is the ability to react to a wide range of opponents playing a wide range of styles. Players who can do this will thrive in both ring games and tournaments alike.

Many of the most costly tournament mistakes are the result of players over-adjusting for tournament play. "

I think that most of this forum has a "sng strategy" instead of just playing the game. I think that when I am playing bad, I think it is because I am getting into the habit of trying to figure out a sng strategy, such as tightening up early, instead of just playing poker. If you are a winning player in ring games, you should be trying to play as many hands as possible. You can certainly make money in sngs by playing as an 8 vpip in the first three levels, but I think you can make more by playing what you would in a regular ring game.

I have some more thoughts, but suck at typing them out, so I guess I will end here.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
You can certainly make money in sngs by playing as an 8 vpip in the first three levels, but I think you can make more by playing what you would in a regular ring game.

I have some more thoughts, but suck at typing them out, so I guess I will end here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big difference is that you can't play draws in the way you can at limit ring tables.

That's not to say you shouldn't play suited/connected hands when the situation is right but you shouldn't do it based on your mad postflop skills, at least not at the lower limits.

But the general idea is good. I find that whenever I go back and re-check after thinking "how could he call there" etc, I will find more often than not based on the players previous actions my response should have been "how could I have thought he wouldn't call with that kind of hand there". When multitabling it is very easy to let a few PV numbers do the thinking for you and a lot of big clues are missed.

[Irieguy]

This is precisely the comment (By Jesus) that got me thinking about my "blind challenge."

I play SNGs much differently than I play all other forms of poker. But I respect Ferguson's opinions more than any other pro alive because of his game theory background. It occured to me that the main distinguishing factor between my SNG play and my ring game play is that almost all of my SNG decisions are based on my cards:

-Levels 1-3 fold all but the top X%
-Levels 4-bubble fold all but top Y%
-Bubble-ITM push with top Z%, call with top (Z - Zfraction)%

I see 12-14% of flops in SNGs, whereas in ring games and MTTs I'm usually one of the more active players at the table. But in the other games, my cards are rarely a primary consideration in my decision to play a hand.

So, it's funny that you mention this quote. Here's what I think:

1. If you play the standard SNG strategy advocated on this forum you will win.

2. If you are a winning ring game player and you play your standard ring game style in SNGs, you will win.

3. The approach that will give you the highest ROI depends on how good your ring game play is.

4. A great ring game player playing his standard game will do better than a perfect "strategy" player in SNGs.

5. It's much easier to teach and learn SNG strategy than it is to teach or learn poker.

Irieguy

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
2. If you are a winning ring game player and you play your standard ring game style in SNGs, you will win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this statement is pretty questionable. I think it's true that you can be a winning (not great) ring game player without much idea of how to handle a short stack. I think you can also be a winning ring game player and get hosed on the bubble, though I guess these are sort of related ideas. The rest of it I all agree with.

[AbelM]

[ QUOTE ]
I have some more thoughts, but suck at typing them out, so I guess I will end here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep 'em coming.

[freemoney]

this is exactly how i feel, i bust out 7-10th about 27% of the time and 10th now about 6% of the time and i dont consider it a leak.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly how i feel, i bust out 7-10th about 27% of the time and 10th now about 6% of the time and i dont consider it a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're busting out in 7-10th 27% of the time you should probably tighten up and stop playing so many unprofitable hands.

[freemoney]

but i win about 16% and only take 4th like 8.5% and i think its due to trying to get chips early, i dont think its a matter of playing too many hands but more of playing them too aggressively, i really rarely make a tough laydown in SnGs.

[Scuba Chuck]

Out of curiosity, when you say ring games, do you refer to LHE, NLHE, or both?

[Sponger15SB]

The problem I have with increasing my VPIP (and I'm sure others have this problem) is that I'm just not good enough. I can't play that many hands with only so few chips and show a profit.

Also, for those who start their SNGs with only 800 chips, its very hard to play that many hands. You just can't afford to lose more than 200 chips early on in a SNG.

A few weeks ago I had Nick send me a PT screen shot of his VPIP/PFR/etc and its very nasty compared to mine. I mean almost embarassing. His style of play of accumulating chips early is very good, and then later on he doesn't have to turn into such a drunk push monkey. Where as I start out like a rock and then I have a 31% PFR in the 250/500 blind level (aka pushing) and I have to take so many risks. I just started playing $55 SNGs yesterday (100+% ROI over 14 tourneys, holla), and I can already tell the difference that a higher early VPIP makes. In fact my VPIP in the first two levels has almost doubled.

I don't really know what this all means but basically if you are playing in the higher starting chip SNGs you should have a higher VPIP early and try to accumulate chips, but if you suck like me you're gonna have to take a lot more risks later on in the SNG and your ROI is gonna suck.

I think that playing well early on in a SNG is one of the most underrated things a SNG player should learn.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you wrote.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Sponger

[/ QUOTE ]

If you aren't a winning ring game player, don't play more hands to start with, cause I think you can win by using the "2+2 sng strategy". I just don't think people should think that is the only way to play.

[lastchance]

When big stack has less than 20x BB, I really don't see how standard ring game play would be profitable at all. I don't see standard ring game play becoming profitable on the bubble either.

But L1-L3, I really would like to have actual postflop skills.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly how i feel, i bust out 7-10th about 27% of the time and 10th now about 6% of the time and i dont consider it a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

whats yer sample size, level played, and percentage breakdown of your statistics? holla

[microbet]

Play in SNGs is affected by the payout, but to a much larger degree it is affected by how short the stacks are (on Party) and the variety in the number of players at the table.

If you are a good ring game player and able to adjust to any blinds/stacks/number of players at the table, you will have incorporated most of the SNG strategy anyway.

[freemoney]

i didnt track my first 400 or so i was up not sure how much, i now have 488 with SnG tracker but almost 1/4th to 1/3rd of the ones i play arent picked up not sure why, but my break down is 31% ROI, 41% ITM.

1- 16%
2- 13%
3- 12%
4- 8.5%
5- 7.5%
6- 12%
7- 10%
8- 9%
9- 6%
10- 7%

i just eyeballed these off the chart from SnG tracker so they might not equal exactly 100% but thats a close estimate.

[codewarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
It occured to me that the main distinguishing factor between my SNG play and my ring game play is that almost all of my SNG decisions are based on my cards:

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. Almost all my decisions in both SnG's and ring games are based on your cards, too!

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[lacky]

eh, yah, you left off the level of play. The $11's are far different than the $109's, so where you play is an important part of how a stratagy performs. You should include that so people know what pond you are swimming in.

Steve

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a quote from a full tilt prolesson which I think applies to this forum.

"How much of a difference is there between ring game strategy and tournament strategy?

The answer: Not as much as you think.

Before you worry about adjusting for tournaments, concentrate on adjusting for the other players. The most important skill in poker is the ability to react to a wide range of opponents playing a wide range of styles. Players who can do this will thrive in both ring games and tournaments alike.

Many of the most costly tournament mistakes are the result of players over-adjusting for tournament play. "

I think that most of this forum has a "sng strategy" instead of just playing the game. I think that when I am playing bad, I think it is because I am getting into the habit of trying to figure out a sng strategy, such as tightening up early, instead of just playing poker. If you are a winning player in ring games, you should be trying to play as many hands as possible. You can certainly make money in sngs by playing as an 8 vpip in the first three levels, but I think you can make more by playing what you would in a regular ring game.

I have some more thoughts, but suck at typing them out, so I guess I will end here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny thing is me and Nick B. play together constantly, have pretty opposite styles but yet still both win at a nice enough clip. I admit that I am playing a few more hands early that I didn't use to before but I still don't feel that it would change my whole game dramatically to have a much higher ROI.

Another way of really making money is fully adjusting to all the players shorthanded to maximize your earnings there. All those +EV pushes/calls, etc add up if you're good enough to spot them. An additional side benefit of this is busting out fellow 2+2'ers SH and telling them you made an +EV call. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Right curtains? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[treeofwisdom7]

[ QUOTE ]
When big stack has less than 20x BB, I really don't see how standard ring game play would be profitable at all. I don't see standard ring game play becoming profitable on the bubble either.

But L1-L3, I really would like to have actual postflop skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you play ring games?

cuz i have no idea how to play them correct? if you can even say ring games can be played correct

[Benholio]

Bear in mind that he is probably talking primary about Multi-table tournaments.

SNG's are an extreme example. Your average SNG lasts like 70 hands and a large portion of the tourney is played shortstacked, where most multi's last hundreds of hands and have long periods of large stack size/blind ratios, where you can play 'real poker'.

[curtains]

I completely own Usher in sit and go's.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]

I completely own Usher in sit and go's.

[/ QUOTE ]

ABSURD! $49820394823049k HU ON STARS NOW!