Reasonable amt. of SNG's to determine a good ROI?

[ClaytonN]

I asked this a week or two but didnt get any answers, will try posing it differently.

What's a reasonable amount of SNG's to play in before I can say with a certain level of confidence what my ROI is on a level of sng play?

Small stakes limit players like to use 10k hands as a barometer for performance at that limit, what is the equivalent for SNG's?

Thanks in advance.

[raptor517]

10k hands = 10k sngs. holla

[ClaytonN]

You can't possibly be serious. And holla.

[Nick B.]

A better question would be, How many posts does it take a poster until he learns to use the search function.

[pearljam]

im pretty sure he is...

[Freudian]

You should get a vague idea after 500 and a slightly better one at 1000. That said, winning players have had breakeven streaks of 500 and more.

I don't know if "actual ROI" is an important concept before something like 10000 or more tournaments.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
A better question would be, How many posts does it take a poster until he learns to use the search function.

[/ QUOTE ]

this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=191 8735&Forum=,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searc hpage=5&Limit=25&Main=1918735&Search=true&where=&N ame=30065&daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval =&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1918735) did not seem to address the topic. Otherwise, I cannot read.

But thanks for the un-necessary comment anyways. You rule.

[ClaytonN]

ty

[Moonsugar]

1

[stupidsucker]

well considering a 10 buy in downswing can strike at any moment with ease.

So pretend you are at the 11s. At any given moment you can lose 10 in a row(really it's more) thats $110

so when a $110 loss doesnt change your roi within a % then you have your answer.

So lets say you play 1k SnGs at the 11 level and your roi is a respectable 25%. Thats $2,750 profit. Now you lose 10 in a row.

Your roi has just dropped to 23.76% a 1.24% drop.

Hope this helps.

Keep in mind that at any given time you could drop as much as 30 buy ins. 10 is a very generous number to go by.

As you move up in limits your sustainable roi goes down and your buy drop possibilities go up.

10k SnGs at the 109s might be an accurate number...

This would take most serious players about 10 months to complete. By this time their game has likely changed anyways.

[flyingmoose]

[ QUOTE ]
1

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say two at least. Maybe 3.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

10k SnGs at the 109s might be an accurate number...

This would take most serious players about 10 months to complete. By this time their game has likely changed anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why a small buyin SNG player should not worry about ROI too much, and concentrate on getting better and moving up.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why a small buyin SNG player should not worry about ROI too much, and concentrate on getting better and moving up.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is a lot of wisdom in this, but players moving up too fast can cause massive problems. You really shouldnt move to a new level until you are comfortable dealing with big swings. If a player cant handle a 30 buy in drop mentaly at the 11s what is a player going to do about a 50 buy in drop at the 55s?

If you are really interested in making more money RoI isnt the stat to be concerned with. The stat is $/hr

Do whatever you can to make your $/hr as high as you can within your bankroll. For some this means moving up, for some it means 8 tabling.

One down and dirty way to make more money is to play more often.

[ClaytonN]

I have ~110 buy-ins at the 10's, so that part is not a concern.

I will likely move up after I play 200 or so and see what my results are. I might try 8-tabling.

[Freudian]

While people here like to say there is no difference between 22s and 11s I think that is untrue.

The 22s are significantly harder than the 11s (but still very beatable). At the 22s you get 2-3 players who know how to play . At the 11s you might have 2 tight players but they don't know how to play. Plenty of donks at both limits though, slightly more at the 11s.

[eastbay]

For the bazillionth time:

After 500 games, you have a 50% chance of being within +/-5% of your true ROI.

After 1000 games, you have a 2/3 chance of being within +/-5% of your true ROI.

After 3000 games, you have a 90% chance of being within +/-5% of your true ROI.

All tedious quibbles about the meaning of "true ROI" will be summarily ignored.

And puuuhlease, can we get fookin' FAQ already?

eastbay

[ClaytonN]

Yea a stickied FAQ would be awfully nice

Does STT have a user mod like SS has GuyOnTilt?

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea a stickied FAQ would be awfully nice

Does STT have a user mod like SS has GuyOnTilt?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but we could use one.

How does one get picked? I can think of a few people that would be good at it, but not that would want to. Most of us are too cynical for the job.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea a stickied FAQ would be awfully nice

Does STT have a user mod like SS has GuyOnTilt?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but we could use one.

How does one get picked? I can think of a few people that would be good at it, but not that would want to. Most of us are too cynical for the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Citanul for mod!

[Phill S]

Curtains hates people to a less of a degree, i would vote for him for mod. But we could do with a mod to lock crap threads and move off topic ones.

And whatever was decided on for a FAQ, it should be locked, stocked and stickied by now.

Phill

[maddog2030]

We have a FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2540909&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1) , but I have no idea why it's not stickied.

AKQJ10 has been trying to push the idea of a Wiki (http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Main_Page) (essentially a community run FAQ). When he first posted it, I simply didn't think it would work. But the more I think about it, the better I like the idea. I sent him the link and I think he'll be posting citanul's Q/A's to get it started. From there, we can all expand on his answers or add new Q/A's as the need arises (e.g. Is this a good example of a Gigabet play? No.)

If people think there's any interest in doing this, I can start either another thread and try to get more people interested or help push it to Mat. If you think this is a dumb idea or won't work, let me know that too. But I think the FAQ will evolve and expand very quickly as people get so sick of seeing the same questions and say "F it, I'm just going to Wiki this so I never have to see it again."

[Jay36489]

This place really does need an FAQ stickied. There are so many people who ask the same questions, then get bashed for it. I mean the search really isnt that great.

Now with this specific case a guy with 3000 posts should know better...

FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2540909 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=pvs&Searchpage=0&Limit=99& Main=2540909&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&dater ange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldertype= &bodyprev=#Post2540909)

[maddog2030]

Also I'd like to mention that some of the current FAQ's answers might be kind of... "unfilling" to the question seeker. Meaning the answer is correct, but maybe more explanation could help see the "why". Well it's not easy writing a lot of information so I understand why it's not there, but distributing that to the whole community would help ease the burden. I don't think I'd be one to write a FAQ, but I could certainly write a pretty detailed article on bankroll that should answer almost any bankroll question a newbie ever asks just by using some statistics and what I've read on here for the past few months. Right now I simply wouldn't have an interest to since it'd never be seen and would be lost in the wilderness.

And I wouldn't even necessarily have to write an article. I could round up some of the most common questions and link to a few specific posts that do a good job of explaining the answer.

[ThaHero]

[ QUOTE ]
well considering a 10 buy in downswing can strike at any moment with ease.

So pretend you are at the 11s. At any given moment you can lose 10 in a row(really it's more) thats $110

so when a $110 loss doesnt change your roi within a % then you have your answer.

So lets say you play 1k SnGs at the 11 level and your roi is a respectable 25%. Thats $2,750 profit. Now you lose 10 in a row.

Your roi has just dropped to 23.76% a 1.24% drop.

Hope this helps.

Keep in mind that at any given time you could drop as much as 30 buy ins. 10 is a very generous number to go by.

As you move up in limits your sustainable roi goes down and your buy drop possibilities go up.

10k SnGs at the 109s might be an accurate number...

This would take most serious players about 10 months to complete. By this time their game has likely changed anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to post jack, but when you guys talk about downswings, do you mean that someone finished OOTM in 30 consecutive tournies for a downswing? Or does it mean maybe he got 3rd a few times, 1st a few, but ultimately when you add up his last 50 or so tournies he has lost 30 buyins?

[valenzuela]

I dont care about my ROI, ppl usually dont post their true ROI IMO, I suppose this is like the first time someone admits he has a 14% ROI, a 36.5 ITM and that he 6th is his second most frequent place( first being first /images/graemlins/smile.gif)on a $11. On other forums I saw everyone replying they have +50%ITM( Im an affiliate for empirebacker or something)