Ok, so I peeked...

[tessarji]

This is a Commerce Casino middle limit game, but the table conditions are very low limit.

The player to my right "Joe" is the best reason for sitting at the table, he plays about 60% of his hands and bets out most flops that are checked to him. He won't get too out of line post-flop without a super hand.

Finally, he has a way of looking at his cards pre-flop that usually exposes the lower right corner of the top card, if I happen to be looking in that direction. And indeed I "happen" quite often.

I have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in CO and I limp after 3 players, including Joe. Button limps and 6 see the flop

Flop: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to "Joe", he bets, I raise, button calls 2, EP player calls 2, Joe 3-bets.

At this moment Joe goes back to his cards to double check and I see he has the 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

I call and 4 go to the turn.

Turn is the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Joe bets again.

What do you feel Joe's hand is, and what should be my play?

[Stormwolf]

strong draw, pair+draw(7d6d)

[Prevaricator]

Does it matter what he has as much as it matters what he doesn't have? The only hands that you lose to are 64 (obviously) or A6d, so I'd be tempted to raise the turn and check the river unless you get help. Raising also narrows the field which is prob good.

On a side note, do other people on this forum believe what youre doing is ethical? WHats the consensus?

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]

On a side note, do other people on this forum believe what youre doing is ethical? WHats the consensus?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd let him know you can see his cards sometimes. Not doing so is unethical, but if he doesn't take reasonable measures to protect his cards after you've told him, it's fair game IMO.

-SmileyEH

[MrStretchie]

Really? Maybe I'm just a dick, but .. well, you're not going to tell him he's giving you money by playing 60% of hands, right? He should know not to, just like he should know to protect his cards..

[b0000000000m]

I agree. Smily's post presents the standard 2+2 line, but far from all agree with it.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Really? Maybe I'm just a dick, but .. well, you're not going to tell him he's giving you money by playing 60% of hands, right? He should know not to, just like he should know to protect his cards..

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem is if you are using knowledge like that it's very unfair to the other players at the table.

[Lestat]

Man, I've had this conversation so many times and I'm always amazed at how many people don't get it:

It's not the unfair advantage you have on HIM that's unethical, it's having an unfair advantage on the REST of the table.

I can appreciate that it's his responsibility to protect his hand and if he fails to do so that's his fault. But it's not the REST of the table's responsibility that he protect his hand from you, so that you know cards that they don't.

[Lestat]

Exactly. Didn't see this post before I responded. Glad someone else agrees with this point of view.

[MichaelOar]

OK, suppose a guy has a tell where his legs shake whenever he has a big hand. You sit next to him, so you can see the legs shaking under the table, but guys on the other side of the table can't see the shake, so they have no opportunity to take advantage of this information. Is using this tell unethical?
I don't think so, and I don't think peeking at a guy's cards who doesn't protect them is unethical either. If the information is available, a competent cardplayer is going to take steps to exploit it. Whether it is available to everyone is irrelevant, IMHO.

Maybe it's just me.

Michael

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
OK, suppose a guy has a tell where his legs shake whenever he has a big hand. You sit next to him, so you can see the legs shaking under the table, but guys on the other side of the table can't see the shake, so they have no opportunity to take advantage of this information. Is using this tell unethical?
I don't think so, and I don't think peeking at a guy's cards who doesn't protect them is unethical either. If the information is available, a competent cardplayer is going to take steps to exploit it. Whether it is available to everyone is irrelevant, IMHO.

Maybe it's just me.

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

you are very confused.

players are not supposed to see other players' hole cards. it is actually AGAINST THE RULES. spotting tells and taking advantage of weak players in other ways is NOT AGAINST THE RULES.

[bicyclekick]

People in vegas are sloppy about looking at their cards too. I looked every time and never said a word.

At canterbury, if it's somebody I know/like I tell them, otherwise no. In vegas...I'm not saying anything.

[thabadguy]

So what should hero do? Yell out "6 of diamonds" so every else on table knows?

[MichaelOar]

Where exactly is that written, because I can assure you that it isn't on the "Poker Room Rules" signs in either of the joints I frequent.

Michael

[tessarji]

[ QUOTE ]
So what should hero do? Yell out "6 of diamonds" so every else on table knows?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have been amused to see the table reaction if I did that. Though people call for 'their' river card all the time so it would not have been interpreted the same way.

My philosophy on peeking is pretty much the same as bicyclekick. Once I met a really nice guy at the table who was somewhat experienced, but for some inexplicable reason revealed his cards very often. I was willing to use the extra information to make a couple tricky raises, but I ran pretty bad and eventually blew through my buyin.

As I was leaving I asked him with a grin for $3 to buy a beer, and I'd give him a tip. He gave me a chip (he was that kind of guy). I told him the two cards that he had just folded and left.

'Joe' is not the kind of guy who gives anyone a break, and therefore is unlikely to get one from me in return.

[tessarji]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hands that you lose to are 64 (obviously) or A6d, so I'd be tempted to raise the turn and check the river unless you get help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 'convinced' once I saw the 6 in his hand that he must have one of those two hands, and was further concerned that one of the two cold-callers was doing something tricky with a set. So I folded.

Almost immediately I smacked myself upside the head for not realizing that 67 or 56 was a more likely hand for a LAG in this situation. This was a case where getting more information actually made me second guess myself, where otherwise I almost certainly would have raised. Possibly costing me the pot.

'Joe' bet the river also. The last caller mucked a busted FD faceup. Joe did not show the table his hand.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so, and I don't think peeking at a guy's cards who doesn't protect them is unethical either.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA. ITS CHEATING! CHEATING IS UNETHICAL!!!

Would you take a peak at a 6 year old's cards playing go fish to gain an edge in that game????

There is no question about it. Peeking is unethical. Having said that, so are many other things I do in life, so I don't have a problem with it.

[MrStretchie]

That's true. Just to be clear, whenever I've been in this situation (usually home games) I've mentioned it to him.. but it did bring up an interesting question (how it's really any different from telling him he's giving you money through his play).

But yes, it is unfair if other players can't see it. What about something like the dealer exposing the bottom card to anyone who might be looking?