Is this line ok for AT from EP?

[avisco01]

Should I have lead the flop in this spot?

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 :#A500AF(CC)/ calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB :#A500AF(Villain)/ 3-bets</font>, BB :#A500AF(BB)/ calls, Hero calls, MP1 :#A500AF(CC)/ calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Villain checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CC checks.

Turn: (6 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villain bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CC folds, Villain calls.

River: (10 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[mscags]

I like it if you are planning on checkraising other wise I just lead out.

[aK13]

I would have mucked preflop.

Villain's flop check probably means he's 3betting with TT-KK (or KQs if he's light), so I'd bet. If I got check/raised, I'd piss on his face while he's sleeping and make a note when he shows me AK/AQ.

[avisco01]

I'd have definitely check-raised to knock out some draws. Also, I checked here with a small edge hoping to give the chasers poorer odds on the turn when I intended to lead / raise. Is this line of thinking correct?

[avisco01]

Normally I don't play AT from this early, but I'm trying to be more aggressive, as per some constructive criticism I've received from members of this forum. I didn't think Villain had an A with a higher kicker when he checked the flop. He couldn't risk giving the chasers a free card with a somewhat coordinated board. Thus, I figured he was afraid of the A, rather than he had me beat. He lead the turn, which I expected given no one bet on the flop, perhaps he thought we all totally missed as well. If he 3-bets the turn, well, I'd have a problem I guess, but I felt fine after he just called.

[shant]

Fold preflop.

[Nick C]

Sometimes this flop check following a preflop 3-bet will mean Villain has AA and flopped an absolute monster. Mathematically, that's unlikely in this case, though (however, he might also do this with AK), and I'm not really sure if such a play is as common on PokerStars as on Party.

Anyway, I agree with aK13 that SB is probably scared of the ace, versus 3 opponents.

I like betting the flop and then being cautious if SB wakes up.

Also, I'm not really crazy about the ATo open-raise. I would muck, but I usually do open-raise AJo, and open-raising with ATo from UTG+2 probably isn't that bad. (It is, for instance, what I would do from MP2.)

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any particular reason, or just a no brainer? Like I said, I usually don't play AT from this early, but I took a shot in a relatively tight room.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any particular reason, or just a no brainer? Like I said, I usually don't play AT from this early, but I took a shot in a relatively tight room.

[/ QUOTE ]
A little too early for this openraise. I would raie AJo from UTG, but I like to wait until MP2 or MP3 to openraise this.

[jjacky]

preflop: i think an open raise from UTG+2 is much too strong a move for a hand as weak as ATo. i would rather call (*edit* or fold, depends on the table conditions).
if you try to push your pokertracker stats to a game theoretical optimum someone announced here in the forum i strongly recommend that you forget about that idea asap, unless you are very far away from a proper range (say your pfr is not between 6% and 12% or something like that).

postflop: your line is definitely not bad. i would like to bet the flop because you may be ahead and you get some information this way. but i think its very close.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes this flop check following a preflop 3-bet will mean Villain has AA and flopped an absolute monster. Mathematically, that's unlikely in this case, though (however, he might also do this with AK), and I'm not really sure if such a play is as common on PokerStars as on Party.

I figured he might try the checkraise on the flop / turn if he had AA or even AK. When he lead the turn, I figured he was trying to "buy it." Like I said, if Villain 3-bets, I likely have made a huge mistake. I doubt I'll be playing AT from EP very often anymore! Too much of a headache! If it were AQ or AJ instead of AT, would my play be more acceptable?

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: i think an open raise from UTG+2 is much too strong a move for a hand as weak as ATo. i would rather call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, just tried something new today. Incidentally, I like to be open raising most of the time unless I have a drawing hand. If instead of being UTG 2, and was isntead say in MP1 or MP2, is open raising AT ok?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
If it were AQ or AJ instead of AT, would my play be more acceptable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Open-raising AQ and AJ from any position is pretty much my default play.

I will say, though, that I don't like it all when I have AJ and get 3-bet. But it's a risk I take.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop: i think an open raise from UTG+2 is much too strong a move for a hand as weak as ATo. i would rather call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, just tried something new today. Incidentally, I like to be open raising most of the time unless I have a drawing hand. If instead of being UTG 2, and was isntead say in MP1 or MP2, is open raising AT ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

that are the positions where it gets really close imo. i think an open raise in MP1 is sometimes correct and in MP2 it is often correct.
the idea to open raise with non-drawing hands sounds good, but i think there is a small range of non-drawing hands that you should limp with (and ATo fits that category from certain positions in certain situations). i am not sure whether that is correct from a game theoretical point of view, assuming everybody plays correctly, but i am sure that is correct in the praxis.

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
A little too early for this openraise. I would raie AJo from UTG, but I like to wait until MP2 or MP3 to openraise this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just wrong in so many ways.

So you are saying that AJo is a raise UTG but A10o is a muck?

The difference between these two hands is so slight that if you played them both the same way (open raising UTG) the results would be pretty much the same.

It's how you play post flop that will make the difference.

Raising, limping, or mucking these hands is all going to depend on the makeup of the other players on the table.

And The better you can play postflop, the more likely you will be able to raise hands like A10o UTG and be profitable with them.

[Guruman]

I think if you're goint to play ATo from this position that:

1)pre-flop you have to either fold or cap that hand when the three-bet comes back to you.

Folding isn't bad since there are still others left to act that are likely to overcall or cap, and you don't have enough equity to play out of position against a tight player who would call then overcall two more or against one who would call/cap preflop.

If you think you can get this heads up, then you've got to cap. If MP1 and BB call you there, then you're dead unless the flop knocks you on your ass.

2)flop check is good since you can't protect your pair here. best to wait for a blank on the turn. (If CC bets and gets callers you can call along. If CC bets and it folds to you its an obvious raise. If CC bets and it comes back two or more you can safely fold.)

3)turn blank gives you the opportunity to chase out any spades that are hanging around. Raise looks good and call a re-raise.

4)I don't know if I'd bet this river, but it looks close. You may get KK-TT to pay you off. AK-AJ may not re-raise. Flushes that survived pre-flop will definately raise. Sets aren't as likely given the pre-flop action.

Overall though, I don't think I'm ahead enough to bet for value, and I don't have enough folding equity at that point to think villain is going to lay anything down he's come this far with.

[mscags]

You will definitely be giving the chasers poorer odds when you face them with 2 cold, but not when they get a free card. I like it though.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have definitely check-raised to knock out some draws. Also, I checked here with a small edge hoping to give the chasers poorer odds on the turn when I intended to lead / raise. Is this line of thinking correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't really in good position to go for a flop checkraise for protection. (Also, do you have reason to think MP1 will bet?)

You say the table is kind of tight. Given that, the only draw that's especially likely on that flop is a flush draw (though 22/44, for instance, would have gutshot/set outs, and A2s and A4s would also have a fair number of outs against you). You can't do anything about a flush draw (someone with one of those is very unlikely to fold before the river). I'm not really sure you want to give someone a free shot at a backdoor flush, though. Someone who picked up a flush draw on the turn would then have the odds to call a single turn bet (or even two or three of them). Basically, there's a good chance you're way ahead, but if someone improves enough, you'll wish you had bet and they had correctly folded on the flop.

The thing that was good about your flop check is that you prompted SB to bet the turn with what apparently was a pocket pair and then pay you off after you raised.

But I think the play was kind of risky. And SB might have called you down anyway (his flop check indicates to me that he probably intended to), so I'm not really sure you gained that much with the line you took.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just wrong in so many ways.

So you are saying that AJo is a raise UTG but A10o is a muck?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. How is it that my opinion of how and what hands I should play can be so wrong in so many ways?

I muck ATo in early position, and I raise ATs and AJo UTG. I'm sure I'm not alone in this on these forums. What exactly are you saying I should do with ATo?

[GMan42]

[ QUOTE ]
So you are saying that AJo is a raise UTG but A10o is a muck?

The difference between these two hands is so slight that if you played them both the same way (open raising UTG) the results would be pretty much the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...anybody do an analysis on this? I had always read that the quality of an ace hand really plummets as the kicker goes down, and that the curve gets really steep as you go from AJ--&gt;AT--&gt;A9, but I never sought out any numbers to back it up.

[Nick C]

Hmm. I disagree with most of this, actually.

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you're goint to play ATo from this position that:

1)pre-flop you have to either fold or cap that hand when the three-bet comes back to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a 3-bet after raising preflop is rarely a good idea.

In my opinion, capping in this spot when up against a probable better hand is just reckless. It's an expensive way to be deceptive, and people don't generally give up their 3-betting hands very easily.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding isn't bad since there are still others left to act that are likely to overcall or cap, and you don't have enough equity to play out of position against a tight player who would call then overcall two more or against one who would call/cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

While a cold-call/cap is possible, partly because some people do like to build big pots, I see no reason to fear one greatly.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you can get this heads up, then you've got to cap. If MP1 and BB call you there, then you're dead unless the flop knocks you on your ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree that it would be nice if the cold-caller folded, especially if he has a hand like AJ. I'm not all that optimistic about getting him to fold, though (he did cold-call once already). And BB already has 3 bets in and won't go away. (If he did, he'd be making a big mistake, anyway.)

[ QUOTE ]
2)flop check is good since you can't protect your pair here. best to wait for a blank on the turn. (If CC bets and gets callers you can call along. If CC bets and it folds to you its an obvious raise. If CC bets and it comes back two or more you can safely fold.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Hero should bet the flop for value and protection against, for instance, backdoor draws. The pot is big.

If SB bets, I don't think it's an easy raise. Hero is likely way ahead or way behind SB, and he's not really that likely to get outdrawn by MP1 on this board, unless MP1 has a flush draw, in which case there's very little chance he'll go away. However, a raise would put pressure on a pocket pair, and I think we want to, because of the implied odds that pair would have. (Also, that pair will have a backdoor flush half of the time.) So I guess I do like raising the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
3)turn blank gives you the opportunity to chase out any spades that are hanging around. Raise looks good and call a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean clubs, but in any event, it's very optimistic to think a flush draw will fold. However, it is true that we'd like to make a flush draw call two bets instead of one. If we're ahead, and I think there's a good chance we are, the raise is for value.

[ QUOTE ]
4)I don't know if I'd bet this river, but it looks close. You may get KK-TT to pay you off. AK-AJ may not re-raise. Flushes that survived pre-flop will definately raise. Sets aren't as likely given the pre-flop action.

Overall though, I don't think I'm ahead enough to bet for value, and I don't have enough folding equity at that point to think villain is going to lay anything down he's come this far with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Villain has a big pocket pair. I'm not too worried about the third club here. It looks like Villain plans to pay off with his pair. I like the bet.

[LImitPlayer]

I'm quite sure you are not alone in the way you play A10o and AJo in these forums either. Doesn't mean you are right.

I'm not telling you what do do with the two hands, you can do whatever you want with them.

I'm simply stating that the he difference in strength of the two hands is minimal, not enough for one to be an auto raise and the other one to be an auto muck from the same position on the same table with the same players.

Do you really think the difference in strength between A10o and AJo is that large?

Most of your success from these hands or any hands will be determined by your postflop play, not your preflop play.

In this hand he was 3 bet pf, so lets take the hands that most people would 3 bet pf with here.

AA KK QQ JJ 1010 99 88, AKs AQs AK AQ

With the exception of 1010, your kicker will not effect the outcome of being up against the other 10 hands preflop.

There is only 1 out of these 11 hands that having a J instead of a 10 as a kicker preflop is going to make a difference and that is 10-10, Against 1010 you have two overcards you can draw for if you hold AJo, instead of the 1 overcard you can draw for if you hold A10o

Add any other hands in there 99, 88, AJs, A10s, hell throw in 72o, your kicker will not be the deciding factor in winning.

So to say that AJo is an auto raise and A10o is an auto muck in the same position with the same players in my opinion is wrong.

A good player will be able to make a profit from both of these hands if they are played the same way pf.
The kicker here does not makes a difference, it's your postflop skills that will make the difference.

[shant]

Obviously poker is situationally dependent. Depending on players behind me and table conditions, I am doing different things with different hands. However, when I first read this hand, there were no reads listed, so I am playing it like it's the first hand at the table. I agree that a lot of the importance is postflop skill which is why a lot of players won't raise AJo or KQo either.

I tried to think of reasons for the difference, and even asked other players I respect. The best thing I can come up with is, there needs to be a cutoff, and AJo is still +EV from EP, and ATo is just getting close. Are you going to become so comfortable with your postlfop play that you'll raise A7o from UTG?

I may be way off here because I seem to be getting you all hot and steamy, but I feel ATo is way too weak to be playing OOP. That's my cutoff, you do what you think is best.

P.S. Jason provided these numbers from Pokerroom.com for the EV per hand:

Overall
AJo = 0.19BB
ATo = 0.08BB

UTG
AJo = 0.03BB
ATo = -0.07BB

Hope that helps you see where I'm coming from.

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between these two hands is so slight that if you played them both the same way (open raising UTG) the results would be pretty much the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true. Although a pair of Aces with a J kicker will win only slightly more often than a pair of Aces with a T kicker, a pair of Js with Ace kicker wins significantly more than a pair of Ts with Ace kicker.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you really think the difference in strength between A10o and AJo is that large?

Most of your success from these hands or any hands will be determined by your postflop play, not your preflop play.

[...]

A good player will be able to make a profit from both of these hands if they are played the same way pf.
The kicker here does not makes a difference, it's your postflop skills that will make the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

A big concern is pairing your kicker but not the A and how often that will hold up. A pair of J is more likely to hold up than a pair of T.

[Guruman]

thanks for your critique of what I saw there Nick. couple of quickies for you or anyone else:

1) re:pre-flop fold when it comes back to you:[ QUOTE ]

While a cold-call/cap is possible, partly because some people do like to build big pots, I see no reason to fear one greatly...
I do agree that it would be nice if the cold-caller folded, especially if he has a hand like AJ. I'm not all that optimistic about getting him to fold, though (he did cold-call once already). And BB already has 3 bets in and won't go away. (If he did, he'd be making a big mistake, anyway.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think folding may be the best option here. You didn't give any opinion one way or the other. Which line do you take in this spot?

re: protecting on the flop:
[ QUOTE ]
I think Hero should bet the flop for value and protection against, for instance, backdoor draws. The pot is big.


[/ QUOTE ] I still don't think I like betting the flop here. I think a pretty wide range of hands will raise me, and it puts me in a bad spot. The pot is too big to fold for one more bet, and while lesser hands like KK-TT, flush draws, and lesser aces may re-raise to isolate and for info, so will more dangerous hands like sets and better aces. I wont be able to tell the difference here, and I can't fold.

I'm still thinking a non-club, non-broadway turn is a better spot to get aggressive.

We seem to agree on the turn (and I did mean clubs) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

on the river:
[ QUOTE ]
I think Villain has a big pocket pair. I'm not too worried about the third club here. It looks like Villain plans to pay off with his pair. I like the bet.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm more worried about better aces than I am about the flush here. Also, I don't see what losing pocket pair can lead the turn and call the raise with the ace out there. It seems like that would be the place for KK-TT to muck. AT is a little weak against what is likely to be another ace for a value bet given what happened preflop.

Am I that far off?

Thanks!

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
In this hand he was 3 bet pf, so lets take the hands that most people would 3 bet pf with here.
AA KK QQ JJ 1010 99 88, AKs AQs AK AQ
With the exception of 1010, your kicker will not effect the outcome of being up against the other 10 hands preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

If we only knew how people would play after we act, poker would be easy.

I play it like Shant because someone who beat Party 30/60 for &gt;3.0BB/100 over 100K hands told me to.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
1) re:pre-flop fold when it comes back to you:[ QUOTE ]

While a cold-call/cap is possible, partly because some people do like to build big pots, I see no reason to fear one greatly...
I do agree that it would be nice if the cold-caller folded, especially if he has a hand like AJ. I'm not all that optimistic about getting him to fold, though (he did cold-call once already). And BB already has 3 bets in and won't go away. (If he did, he'd be making a big mistake, anyway.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think folding may be the best option here. You didn't give any opinion one way or the other. Which line do you take in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call, unhappily. Capping does have potential benefits (mainly deception), but I just don't think it's worth it.

[ QUOTE ]
re: protecting on the flop:
[ QUOTE ]
I think Hero should bet the flop for value and protection against, for instance, backdoor draws. The pot is big.


[/ QUOTE ] I still don't think I like betting the flop here. I think a pretty wide range of hands will raise me, and it puts me in a bad spot. The pot is too big to fold for one more bet, and while lesser hands like KK-TT, flush draws, and lesser aces may re-raise to isolate and for info, so will more dangerous hands like sets and better aces. I wont be able to tell the difference here, and I can't fold.

I'm still thinking a non-club, non-broadway turn is a better spot to get aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think SB's flop check probably means either a monster or fear of the ace. MP1 could have me beat, but I'm not assuming he does. If MP1 raises and SB check/3-bets, I'm out of there. I'm not expecting that to happen. If MP1 calls or folds and then SB checkraises, I'd at least peel one card, hoping to catch a ten. I guess I might grudgingly call down even without improving, but I wouldn't be happy about it.

[ QUOTE ]
We seem to agree on the turn (and I did mean clubs) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

on the river:
[ QUOTE ]
I think Villain has a big pocket pair. I'm not too worried about the third club here. It looks like Villain plans to pay off with his pair. I like the bet.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm more worried about better aces than I am about the flush here. Also, I don't see what losing pocket pair can lead the turn and call the raise with the ace out there. It seems like that would be the place for KK-TT to muck. AT is a little weak against what is likely to be another ace for a value bet given what happened preflop.

Am I that far off?

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

People get attached to their pocket pairs sometimes. Also, Hero's flop check did represent weakness. If SB was trapping on the flop, he slowed down pretty quickly on the turn. I guess he could have the mathematically unlikely AA (or the less mathematically unlikely AK, I guess) and could have decided to go back to his trapping strategy after getting raised, but I really do think he has KK-TT. (Edit: And if by some chance he has 99 instead, then that's unfortunate.)

I don't know. I just think SB will usually lead the flop with a big ace. And I don't think he'd slow down so quickly (and go back to trapping) on the turn with AA.

Possibly the fact that I know Villain just called on the river is influencing me, but I like the river bet.

[LImitPlayer]

If I came across as hot and steamy last night, I didn't mean to, I had a shitty day which might have reflected in the way I worded my post.

If i came across as a dick I apoligize.

All I was getting at is the difference in ev between the two hands pre flop is marginal, it's postflop that will make the most difference.

As far as the pokerroom stats on the two hands go, I don't really give them to much credibility. Those are the stats on the two hands played by all players, every time they are dealt.

Since 80-90% of poker players are losing players (or whatever the going % is these days), if these hands were dealt 10 million times each, 8-9 million times these hands were played, they were played by losing players, hence they would be played poorly the majority of the time.

For me the differnce between the two hands in my pt database sits at .04 I have been dealt A10o 2801 times and have a winrate of 0.23 I have been dealt AJo 3380 times and have a winrate of 0.27

If I am going to raise AJo UTG then I am also raising A10o UTG as well on that table.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is just wrong in so many ways.

So you are saying that AJo is a raise UTG but A10o is a muck?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. How is it that my opinion of how and what hands I should play can be so wrong in so many ways?

I muck ATo in early position, and I raise ATs and AJo UTG. I'm sure I'm not alone in this on these forums. What exactly are you saying I should do with ATo?

[/ QUOTE ]

AJ is certainly better. Like I said, I usually instantly muck AT from EP, but for many reasons, I've decided to play a bit more loose aggressive when first joining a game. What seems to happen is that I play my usual super tight game when I first join a game and people easily fold to me when I pick up a hand. I was hoping to show this down to give the better players the idea that I'm a bit loose with my preflop playing standards, and as for the poor players, I likely will have them beat most of the time no matter what I open raise with as I'm not going to be too crazy, I mean AT is still far better than a lot of starting hands. Basically, I was sort of reverse switching gears. Rather than coming into a game playing ridiculously tight, I figured I'd give the impression that I'm not a player to be worried about early in the game, being that first impressions usually stick, and then later punish those players that think I'm a loose aggressive type when I actually pick up a monster. Basically, I'm trying to not be as predictable as it seems to have become a real problem for me. I seem to get bogged down trying to play perfectly to early in the game. Thus, I loosened my preflop raising standards and AT became a raise rather than a muck / limp. Also, I hate limping from EP regardless, like to take control of the hand from EP. Its usually raise or fold, and since this is usually a fold, I decided to raise to shake things up a bit. I am not going to make a habit out of playing weaker hands like this, but I gave it a shot just this once.