Monte Carlo 4-8: Challenged on the turn in three hands

[Dynasty]

I decided to play some 4-8 (with $1 and $2 blinds) while watching the Super Bowl today. In three different hands, I had a pocket pair which got challenged by a player unexpectedly betting into me after I showed strength on previous streets. In violation of my own "rule", I'll post all three hands together since they have similar problems.

Hand #1:

I'm UTG, get dealt J/forums/images/icons/club.gifJ/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, and open-raise. It's folded to the cutoff who has been cold-call happy (don't know why since he was a big Raiders fan). He calls. The rest fold to a very tight Big Blind who calls. The Big Blind has been a "show down the nuts" player the last two times I've seen him and has walked away with about 80 big bets in the ~8 hours I've played with him. 3 players see the flop with 4.5 small bets in the pot.

The flop is: 9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif5/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Big Blind checks. I bet. Cutoff calls. Big Blind calls. 3 players see the turn with 3.75 big bets in the pot.

The turn is: 9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif5/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/spade.gifT/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Big Blind bets into me. Your play?

Hand #2:

A loose older gentleman limps UTG. The next two players fold to me. I raise with 9/forums/images/icons/club.gif9/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. Button cold calls. Button is a friend of the "Raiders fan" from Hand #1. Small Blind calls. Small Blind is an aggressive player who tries to push every hand he has hard. Big Blind calls. He's the Raider fan from Hand #1. UTG calls. 5 players see the flop with 7.5 small bets in the pot.

The flop is: 8/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

The first three players check to me and I bet. Button calls. Small Blind Calls. Big Blind folds. UTG calls. Four players see the turn with 5.75 big bets in the pot.

The turn is: 8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif3/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

The Small Blind bets out. UTG calls. Your play?

Hand #3

Three players limp to me in the cutoff. I've got 6/forums/images/icons/heart.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif and limp as well. Button calls. Small Blind calls. Big Blind checks. 7 players see the flop with 3.5 small bets in the pot.

The flop is: A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/spade.gif4/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Everybody checks to me and I bet. It's folded to the Big Blind who calls. The Big Blind is an aggressive player who's been raising a lot pre-flop with even a marginal hand like ATo. Everybody else folds. 2 players see the flop with 2.75 big bets in the pot.

The turn is: A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/spade.gif4/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/club.gif

Big Blind bets. Your play?

[Sooga]

Hand #1 I would definitely raise. I would figure that if he had 9T he would go for the check-raise, so I'd put him on some sort of big heart draw, or maybe AT or something. In any case, I'd think I'm still ahead here. This, coupled with the fact that I want the cutoff out of there would make for a raise. If I get 3-bet, then I think I fold.

Hand #2 is kind of hard to analyze right now because for some reason the 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif on the flop turned into an 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif on the turn! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif I would be more inclined to raise if it were a diamond, since the aggressive SB could be betting his draw, and if he had a 3, he would most likely go for a check raise. Plus, like hand #1, I want to get the riffraff behind me out of there. If I'm 3-bet, again, I think I fold.

Hand #3 I have no idea about. I find myself in these kind of situations all the time and I never quite know what to do.

[Dynasty]

In hand #2, the board on the turn should be a pure rainbow board with no flush draw in any suit. I'm not sure why that happened since I copy/paste those lines down.

The flop should have read: 8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

[FletchJr.]

Hand #1
Hmm,I think the player might be on a seious semi-bluff here, it's the expensive street, he may put you on AK, and hit a flush draw with two over cards or an open ender or both. YOu said he was an excellent player, do you think if he had 2 pair he would check raise or just come out betting, maybe your best play is to raise here in hopes to get the cutoff who may have two over cards to fold. Also you could check the river if a scare card came, and you could pray that the board pairs or you hit a 9 if he 3 bets.
Comments on my comments are more then welcome.
Hand #2

He's aggresive, maybe he's betting in hopes of you laying down overcards, trying to represent the 3. He did call a raise pre-flop so the chances of him holding a 3 is less likely. I would probably just call him down, basically cause you can beat top two pair.

Hand #3
I would call him down, he's playing aggresive, he could only have a 4, he could have 55's, maybe I'm to weak here and you should raise him, just not to sure.If he checks the river you may be able to bet for value, but i really don't think he'd call unless your beat since he's aggresive, maybe you should just call him down on the turn and check if he checks to you, I think he will fold if you have him beat.

Please post comments, I want/need to change some of the ways I think in these difficult decisions.

[Bob T.]

Hand 1) Because you are in the middle position on this hand, I think that you have to either raise or fold here, depending on the nature of the player. Based on your characterization of the big blind, I think I am going to throw my overpair away here, expecting to see either a set, or T9 suited for two pair.

Hand 2. Again, I think this depends on the players involved. I think that the aggressive player might be making a play here, maybe with top pair. The middle player who called, is certainly behind you now, so I am going to raise here, and hope that noone got involved for two bets preflop holding a three.

Hand 3. I think that the third ace led the small blind to believe that you don't have an ace. At the same time, why would he bet if he had one, he would probably try and checkraise the turn, or more likely the river. So I think that it is likely that he has some pair, but is it better than your sixes. I think that given that he bet out, his pair is fairly fragile, and might be fours. A case could be made for raising here, because you might be able to get a bigger pocket pair to lay down, or you might be able to prevent your opponent from making a pair with an overcard to your sixes, but you also just might make this hand more expensive. I call on the turn, and river.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[King_J]

Hand one: since hes so tight I would just call him down with my jacks.

Hand two: I would raise those nines. He has an eight or six.

Hand three: No comments. I could as well have been the poster on that hand. I would probably have called him down...

[Billy LTL]

Hand #1 - Is the big blind so tight and so bad that he wouldn't have bet out on the flop with top pair?

Presuming you're already beaten on the turn, you've got six outs (two jacks and two outs for each of the BB's non-paired cards, if in fact he is ahead here) and the pot is offering 4.75-1 on the turn bet to you. You're a 6-1 dog if he does have you and well ahead if he doesn't. I say call, let the Raider's fan call behind you (dangerous, I know because if you make two pair you could be facing his trips). Then check-call the river unless a jack shows up.

Hand #2 - Raise. You're likely ahead here but might not be on the next card. A raise here will most likely give you the option of checking the river.

Hand #3 - Raise. Bad luck if he's got that lone ace.

Cheers, Billy

[Dr.Kimble]

Hand #1: Raise
Hand #2: Limp is the better preflop Play

Hand #3 Bet

[Tyler Durden]

I'll try to give this a shot:

Hand One:

I'm raising the turn to get back in the driver's seat of this hand. He may be betting a four-flush. He's going to have to show me two pair before I lay this down.


Hand Two:

I'd fold. You're probably beaten in one spot.


Hand Three:

I'm perplexed. I think he would have bet his 4 on the flop. I don't think he has the case ace. What a dilemma!

[Vehn]

#1) I think the best play is to raise with the intention of checking the river unless a 5 2 or J comes off. My first thought was call and fold the river without improvement (if your description of the big blind is accurate) but you need to clean up your outs in case the LP has a 5 or 2 (and the BB has exactly top two) and this way you get to showdown anyways. Fold if 3 bet on the turn.

#2) Raise and bet the river if checked to.

#3) Call the turn and raise the river if bet into, otherwise bet if checked to. No reason to lose him on the turn.

[Robk]

Hey Dynasty, I thought hand number one was very interesting. If this were heads up I would
almost certainly raise. It is very hard to put someone on a set or 2 pair here. I would guess he
has JT or QJ. But when a good player bets into me and there is a bad player to act
behind me and it is marginal between raising or calling, I lean toward calling. He most likely has
5 or 6 outs and is wrong to call 1 bet in this small pot, but will do it. I would raise the river if he
folded, and maybe if he called, depending on what card came off.
P.S. Vehn, I don't understand why when you raise the turn and he only calls you would you
think that you're suddenly behind on the river. What hand would he possibly play this way?
Maybe t9, but even that's a stretch.

[bad beetz]

I don't know at all about what to do in the first two.

I think I'd raise the turn on the third hand.

[bad beetz]

About hand three, my first thought was call the turn and raise the river, I then changed to raising the turn to lose him if he's betting two big cards.

Which is better? I don't know.

[Homer]

Hand 1:

I would raise. Your hand is too strong to fold, even against a "showdown the nuts" kind of player. He could be betting with hands that you beat, such as top pair-top kicker (AT) and two overcard hearts (KQh, AKh, AQh). He also could be betting with hands like two-pair, with which he will likely check to you on the river (from the sound of it), allowing you to get to showdown for the same amount as calling him down. If he has a very strong hand, he will reraise, and you can safely lay down your hand. Additional benefits of raising are knocking out the CO and setting yourself up for a river bet, should you spike a Jack.

Hand 2:

I would raise. I think it is unlikely that SB has a 3, given that he coldcalled your preflop raise (though he could have something like A3s). Also, if he had a 3, there is a good chance that he would try for a checkraise. When he bets out it seems as if he is trying to protect his hand, which is likely worse than yours. UTG probably is clinging to overcards.

Hand 3:

I would call as you are either way ahead or way behind.

-- Homer

[Ulysses]

Hand 1: Raise
Hand 2: Raise
Hand 3: Call

[gerf]

Hand #1:
I'm not sure why a lot of people are assuming that the BB is a good player. I think it is obvious you are behind. The only hands I put BB on are T9s or TT, with the slight chance of 99. Unless the CO will cold call with A5 or A3s (I'm not sure if thats what it takes to be cold call happy /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif ), the only hand you want him to fold is KQ. So, I am not too worried about knocking him out and I am willing to call the turn to see if I hit a 2, 5, or J. I think you have to fold if you do not improve on the river. If for some reason the CO raises the turn, I think you need to call the raise unless the BB reraises.

Hand #2:
It sure looks like the SB is betting a scare card. It seems like the SB would attempt a checkraise on the turn with a 3 or a boat if they know that you will bet the turn if it is checked to you (which I assume you would). I think you should raise the turn because you are likely ahead and you can get the button to fold overcard(s). However, I'm unsure if you should call a 3-bet from an aggresive SB. Its a judgement call on whether you value bet the river (assuming SB does not reraise turn).

Hand #3: I think you should raise the turn and check behind on the river. Fold to a 3 bet. This has the advantages of charging the BB to draw to overcards on the turn and I do not believe the BB will 3 bet a pocket pair. Check the river because you will not win 55% of the time you are called. I think an argument can be made for folding the turn, or possibly raising the river instead of the turn, but "call, call" sure seems like the worst option because it minimizes the amount you win when you are ahead, but does not minimize the amount you lose when you are behind.

[Homer]

In Hand 3, why does "call, call" minimize the amount you win when you are ahead?

Say the person betting into you has Kx. If you raise, he may fold, whereas if you call, you may induce him to bet into you again on the river.

Just a thought...

-- Homer

[pufferfish]

Hand #1:

Given your description of BB I would fold.

Hand #2:

Raise. I'd be worried if I couldn't get this HU with SB though.

Hand #3:

Raise. I think your still ahead unless he just happens to have the case Ace.

[Duke]

1. Smells like 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif That's about all I see making complete sense, but I have witnessed and been a part of twilight zone plays at the monte carlo. Sure he can have 2 pair, but I think that you hear something on the flop if he had a 9. But maybe not. 9T or 78 methinks. Raise the turn and call the river.

2. I just fold. I think I'm drawing to 2 outs, and that's not enough for me.

3. I raise this 100 percent of the time. The only time I would not raise is if I held an underpair to the 4. If you get kicked, call down, but I don't think he has an A, or KK-77 much of the time. I get worried if another ace comes off, though.

~D

[AceHigh]

#1) raise, I want to drive out the cutoff. Decent chance the BB is pulling the Clarmeister manuever here.

#2) raise, again I want to drive out opponents. Good chance you are still ahead.

#3) call, and call it down. Let him bluff the turn and river. Doesn't have pot odds to draw to 2 overcards to your 66's. Isn't BB likely to have raised preflop with an Ace?

[Dynasty]

When thinking about these three hands collectively, I'm wondering if I'm being too aggressive because I raised the turn in all three hands and after getting called, I bet the river each time. Here are the details. Good results aside, I was putting multiple big bets into the pot with only marginal holdings.

Hand #1

The turn is: 9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif5/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/spade.gifT/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Big Blind bet. I raised. Cutoff folded.

The river is: 9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif5/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/spade.gifT/forums/images/icons/heart.gif4/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Big Blind checked. I bet. Big Blind called.

JJ is good. Big Blind had ATo

Considering how tight I perceived Big Blind to be, I was very surprised to see ATo. He must have noted that I bet unimproved hands in spots where he wouldn't and thought he was good if he made a pair.

Hand #2

The turn is: 8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif3/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Small Blind bet. UTG called. I raised. Button folded to the raise. Small Blind called. UTG called.

The river is: 8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif6/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif3/forums/images/icons/heart.gifT/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Small Blind checked. UTG checked. I bet. Small Blind called. UTG folded.

99 is good. Small Blind showed 77. UTG said he folded an 8.

Hand #3

The turn is: A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/spade.gif4/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/club.gif

Big Blind bet. I raised. Big Blind called.

The river is: A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/spade.gif4/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifA/forums/images/icons/club.gif4/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Big Blind checked. I bet. Big Blind called.

66 is good. Big Blind showed 94o (I don't know why they kept showing their hands).

King J, were you the Big Blind in this hand with 94o? The hand was played during the Super Bowl. If it was you, you may remember me raising the turn on an 8,6,5,3 board with two clubs holding 9d6d when you had raised pre-flop out of you blinds with Acxc.

[Duke]

I'm thinking back on the fold I suggested, and I'm thinking that that's weak-tight. I like your raise after thinking about it, though my reasoning would be to see where I'm at, and not thinking I have the best hand at the time.

Do you fold to a 3-bet in this spot against a normal opponent, or would that be a usual call, and a fold only where you had a read?

~D

[Jim Easton]

Hand #1: I'm UTG, get dealt JJ, and open-raise . . .

The flop is: 953

The turn is: 952T

Big Blind bets into me. Your play?

How sure is he you would bet the turn? If he could beat you (2 pair or a set) would he check raise? Would he have bet the flop or check raised with TT? Would he call the flop with AT? I would raise, then reevaluate if he 3 bets.

Hand #2:

A loose older gentleman limps UTG. The next two players fold to me. I raise with 99 . . .

The flop is: 863

The turn is: 8633

The Small Blind bets out. UTG calls. Your play?

I would raise again. My tendency is to err to the side of overly aggressive with overpairs.

Hand #3

Three players limp to me in the cutoff. I've got 66 and limp as well.
The flop is: AA4

Everybody checks to me and I bet. It's folded to the Big Blind who calls. The Big Blind is an aggressive player who's been raising a lot pre-flop with even a marginal hand like ATo. Everybody else folds. 2 players see the flop with 2.75 big bets in the pot.

The turn is: AA4A

Big Blind bets. Your play?

Did your flop bet "tell" him you didn't have an ace? Would he try to represent the case ace because he knows you don't have it? He could have a pair bigger than 66, or he could have a 4, with 3 outs if his kicker is higher than 6. I think I would just call here and the river. I don't see much value in a raise. If he 3 bets, you can easily fold, but at a cost of 2 bb. Calling the turn and the river costs the same 2 bb and gets a showdown with less risk.




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