christianity and gambling

[technologic]

is it anywhere stated in the bible that gambling is a sin?

to play poker, you have to be somewhat greedy, which may be a sin, ie you want to maximize your earnings and win the most money possible. however, the same could be said about a lot of professions, where you work your way up, etc. if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

there however, is also the moral question of taking from people who are less able than you, or in a desperate money situation. hearing about a story where a man who looked devastated after losing a pot to my friend on a two outer made me think that although the man should not be gambling in the first place, that it was wrong for my friend to win that pot.

so my question is, what do people think of the moral implications of poker, and are there any christians here that can say how they deal with the issue?

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed comparison. In the stock market, maximizing your returns does not directly harm others, whereas in poker, when you win, somebody has to lose.

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed comparison. In the stock market, maximizing your returns does not directly harm others, whereas in poker, when you win, somebody has to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

[Georgia Avenue]

Hi there, this is my first post to the 2+2 forum, and I'm glad it's about something so high-minded...please let me know if I violate any rules of etiquette of which I wasn’t aware…

I am a Christian who plays poker so I thought I'd give you my inexpert opinion. First of all--the bible says nothing about it at all directly, though there are some instances of negative connotations given to gambling, (Roman soldiers shooting dice over Jesus' clothes come to mind) but in general it looks down on that kinda thing (you know—the fun stuff!), so we can't be sure. I'm not much of a literalist, though, so there may be some chapter & verse types who would contradict me...I believe Maimonides the medieval Jewish philosopher has a chapter about it (negative no doubt), so, I guess officially it’s a sin. But so is sex before marriage and I sure as heck abused that one…and so do most Xristians.

To me the more pertinent question is: what aspect of poker (if any) is most corrosive to the soul—the winning or the losing? To win you have to beat someone, sometimes cruelly, as you say. But in my opinion this isn’t really hurtful to them. You and they came to an agreement about a game, and though you may have more information about how one should play, you’re not cheating them…so really it’s not a sin to take someone’s money…even if they’re a totally degenerate gambler, they rationally know the risks and took them anyway. It’s not a sin for say, Charles Barkley to whup my ass at 1 on 1 even though he has every possible physical advantage, or for some chess whiz-kid to deliver the smackdown on me in the park, even though he has mental and experiential advantages. That’s just competition.

To me, gambling is only a sin for the player who loses (I don’t just mean money). Most gamblers lose money, lots and lots of money, and for what? Because of the power they feel over the world when they (rarely) win. It’s a bitter rush, this feeling, like you know the universe loves you or something. They ruin their lives over it, and you could say that they put that feeling before the people that they love, even before God, and that is a sin. Now, poker players don’t really lose that much (most of us) and even if we’re total donkeys we don’t usually take out second mortgages or anything because of it. But we do sometimes get this feeling that we control luck, that we are the most powerful beings ever. That’s a little scary.

Now I’m not trying to put down anyone’s life-style, so please don’t take offense. I don’t think my opinions and beliefs are for everyone…I’m a bit too Kierkegaardian for most Xristians too…but it’s because of worries like this that I’ve been starting to limit my game to poker tourneys only, where the competition aspects are favored over the gambling aspects. Of course, I still do play…I just try to stay humble and open to the possibility that poker=gambling=sin, and that if it becomes a problem, I should consider quitting.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[/ QUOTE ]

drudman, you are thus stating that the entire global economic system is some type of zero-sum game. Regardless of whether certain political philosophies might allege this to be so, you cannot prove that it is.

[drudman]

Then where does it come from?

I know virtually nothing about econ. I didn't say that the global economy is a zero sum game, I said it seems debatable. I don't think I'm wrong for thinking this either. Isn't there a limited amount of capital available in the world?

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a debatable point. There is a finite amount of capital in the world. If I get more, it must have come from somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very insightful.

[BluffTHIS!]

My church, the Catholic Church, teaches that gambling is not in itself sinful but only becomes so if once gambles with money necessary to provide the livelihood for himself/family or necessary to meet his otherwise just obligations, or if one should cheat at such games. I would also personally think it morally unacceptable to hustle games with gambling addicted persons who cannot afford it, as advocated in that cynical masterpiece by Frank Wallace. The other aspect that has to do with morality is the legal one, in that you are normally morally obliged to follow all just laws. I personally have no problem playing in 'illegal' homegames or online because I do not believe the laws against same are just because they are not applied equally but to benefit various states and corporations that are allowed special exemptions for lotteries and limited casinos that have an interest in limiting competition.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Then where does it come from?

I know virtually nothing about econ. I didn't say that the global economy is a zero sum game, I said it seems debatable. I don't think I'm wrong for thinking this either. Isn't there a limited amount of capital available in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no economist, but a very simplistic example based upon a rural agrarian situation is where you are a farmer who produces in excess of your needs and I am a blacksmith. Along comes a trader who buys from and sells to me and vice versa, or perhaps we have no middleman. And perhaps one of us is better endowed in the way of talent or more industrious and thus is able to 'get ahead' more than the other. Of course so many of the poor in the world have no such opportunities as they can not even produce enough to provide for themselves. If you want to discuss this further for some reason start a new thread as this is now off topic, and much more complicated than the simple example I have used.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
so my question is, what do people think of the moral implications of poker, and are there any christians here that can say how they deal with the issue?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on. Clearly a sin. What the hell good does it serve? It is a game of chance, so the players worship chance more than God, and they love money more than Him. It is a vain and idle pursuit. But hey, I'm not just Christian, I'm Catholic, so I can do these sorts of things! (not serious) Hey, Pascal was a gambler.

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then where does it come from?

I know virtually nothing about econ. I didn't say that the global economy is a zero sum game, I said it seems debatable. I don't think I'm wrong for thinking this either. Isn't there a limited amount of capital available in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no economist, but a very simplistic example based upon a rural agrarian situation is where you are a farmer who produces in excess of your needs and I am a blacksmith. Along comes a trader who buys from and sells to me and vice versa, or perhaps we have no middleman. And perhaps one of us is better endowed in the way of talent or more industrious and thus is able to 'get ahead' more than the other. Of course so many of the poor in the world have no such opportunities as they can not even produce enough to provide for themselves. If you want to discuss this further for some reason start a new thread as this is now off topic, and much more complicated than the simple example I have used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I will do so.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
The other aspect that has to do with morality is the legal one, in that you are normally morally obliged to follow all just laws. I personally have no problem playing in 'illegal' homegames or online because I do not believe the laws against same are just because they are not applied equally but to benefit various states and corporations that are allowed special exemptions for lotteries and limited casinos that have an interest in limiting competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is the Catholic church's doctrine that one can decide for himself what is a just law. Although it was their practice with regard to sovereign nations before Vatican II... hypocrites.

[technologic]

so then as a believer, you would suggest that the best course of action is to quit poker immediately?

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
so then as a believer, you would suggest that the best course of action is to quit poker immediately?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Although I have my little ways of justifying it as well.

[technologic]

my main point about the stock trading, is that it is a bit like poker, ie, you don't know whether a specific stock will rise, but your expected return is positive, and therefore you maximize that without regard to being productive (unless you consider traders to be productive, which can be arguable), etc.

[technologic]

i am curious to hear your justifications

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it is the Catholic church's doctrine that one can decide for himself what is a just law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since my conscience, whether correctly formed or not, is the judge of all my moral actions (and which is what God judges my actions against since if I had stricter moral standards than required I would be bound by that as well), then the church does not teach that I cannot do so, assuming of course that I am making an honest judgement, which I believe I am. The same can be said for going the "customary" 5-10 over the speed limit when even all the other cars in the right lane are doing so and I would be posing a nuisance/hazard by not following suit.

[technologic]

to embellish further,

i have been playing online for about a year, and have been moderately successful. the numbers on the screen makes it easier to dehumanize others, and i merely see it as a game to accumulate points. ( i have not spent most of my winnings as of yet)

i don't know really what motivates me to play, maybe it is the money, or maybe i feel competitive with it ( i have another friend who also plays that i want to beat in terms of accomplishment ), which is probably definitely a sin (pride). however, i wonder if there is any way to play poker with a clear conscience, as if it was any regular job.

[BluffTHIS!]

I do play poker for a living and do so with a clear conscience. If you cannot do so, either for a living or even recreationally, then it should be clear that you should quit. However I think you are being overly scrupulous here about this "dehumanizing" part and are assuming that you are somehow taking unfair advantage of worse players when they of their own free choice for whatever personal reasons have chosen to play as well. Granted that for some of them it may be because they have a gambling problem, but you are not hustling them by seeking them out and asking them to play, or by flattering their egos about how good they play just to get them to keep blowing their dough. Most of your opponents are merely playing for fun, but a 3rd group are also playing with a money-making intention even though the majority of same won't be successful at it long term and will individually quit or become recreational players.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
However I think you are being overly scrupulous here about this "dehumanizing" part and are assuming that you are somehow taking unfair advantage of worse players when they of their own free choice for whatever personal reasons have chosen to play as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prostitutes choose to be prositutes "of their own free choice," but that doesn't mean you should solicit whores.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Prostitutes choose to be prositutes "of their own free choice," but that doesn't mean you should solicit whores.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are making the unwarranted assumption that I consider gambling per se to be morally wrong which I made clear in an earlier post I do not.

[Abednego]

This is wrong ..... capital is not finite

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong ..... capital is not finite

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a little late, chief.

[bohemian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you were a stock trader, you have to be greedy and optimize your portfolios to maximize returns, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed comparison. In the stock market, maximizing your returns does not directly harm others, whereas in poker, when you win, somebody has to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT? You mean when you make money on stocks there is nobody who loses? That's ridiculous.

[[censored]]

I thought Jesus funded the building of the first church with his poker winnings.

[Abednego]

this is correct

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

is it anywhere stated in the bible that gambling is a sin?


[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, it does not. I also do not believe games of skill are gambling in the same sense as -EV games, like slots.

[ QUOTE ]

to play poker, you have to be somewhat greedy


[/ QUOTE ]

This is just wrong.

[ QUOTE ]

there however, is also the moral question of taking from people who are less able than you, or in a desperate money situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's wrong to win from those less able, especially if they have the ability but refuse to work at the game. If I know someone is losing more than he can afford, which has only happened once for me in a B&M, I will leave the table.

This question mostly comes down to a question of conscience. There is no occupation that can't be abused or done in a sinful way. What gives me the most problem is image. Because many people think playing poker is sin, I do not discuss it with someone until I'm sure he has a good attitude toward it. But if I do quit, it will probably be for that reason.

[Dan Mezick]

Assume "harm others" = "they lose money"

I'm confused. To win in the stock market, someone must lose.

When you go long, the seller of the stock loses next-day gains if you subsequently gain the next day, and vice versa.

When you go short, the buyer of your borrowed shares loses the next day, if you gain the next day from a decline in price, and vice versa.

It's a zero sum game (actually a negative sum game) with commissions and slippage expenses.

It's very similiar to poker in many respects.

Those who may be interested in trading may join the Stock Trading Competition currently underway in the Stock Market Forum.

Bring your fear, and greed, in fact all your emotions, in proper balance.

[technologic]

sorry all, what i meant to say when i put the stock market into discussion was not to say winning the stock market takes from others, or if it's a zero sum game, but comparing it to a job that physically helps other people (whether it be working at a fast food restaurant, being a doctor, selling something that's +EV for the other person) etc.

some might argue that being a financial intermediary does a public service, etc. but in the long haul, besides ipo offerings, i think that brokers are in the business to make lots of money, not to help business thrive.

[TStoneMBD]

i didnt read the other posts because i stand firmly on this issue.

my point of view is that alot of christian gamblers are fooling themselves as gambling is a sin according to the bible. the word "gamble" may never have been used specificially, but the word "sin" means to do something against the will of god. i think the message of the bible clearly shows that greed, taking advantage off the loss of others and not being productive is against the will of god.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

i didnt read the other posts because i stand firmly on this issue.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like an open mind.

[ QUOTE ]

greed


[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume greed?

[ QUOTE ]

taking advantage off the loss of others


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this true of any profit? But the Bible is clearly not against making a profit.

[ QUOTE ]

not being productive


[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible doesn't say to be productive. Also, if poker isn't sinful and the game itself has value, then playing the game is productive.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
i didnt read the other posts because i stand firmly on this issue.

my point of view is that alot of christian gamblers are fooling themselves as gambling is a sin according to the bible. the word "gamble" may never have been used specificially, but the word "sin" means to do something against the will of god. i think the message of the bible clearly shows that greed, taking advantage off the loss of others and not being productive is against the will of god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you lived in a small town. The town was only big enough to support one store. You decide that you're tired of being a farmer and you want to open a store of your own (or, say you can't provide for your family anymore by being a farmer). You do a better job running your store and the other owner ends up having to close his business. Is that ok? You're causing harm to someone who's not as capable as you are.

Are you wrong if you start up a brewery, even knowing that your beer will be sold to people who: are alcoholics; can't afford it; avoid their families and responsibilities and just sit around and drink; are underage, etc? You aren't doing anything wrong, you are being productive, yet others are being hurt by your product.

You and a friend get together every day to play chess. He has no chance whatsoever of beating you. He'll never study, and he'll never be as good as you. However, he likes the game and the challenge. Are you wrong to keep playing him? Aren't you just wasting your time and his?

Poker is a game that is legal. Some players are more talented than others; and some will put more effort into it than others. The majority of people who play, do so for entertainment. For them, losing some money playing cards is no different than spending money out at the bar, or going to the theater, or going to watch a football game. Surely you can't deny that they have the right to entertain themselves however they'd like?

I happen to have been "given" skills which allow me to be successful in poker. I use these skills to win the game. I do not cheat to win, I play according to the rules which are laid out for all the players to see. By winning, I am doing a better job of providing for my family. I could get a second job, but I am able to play poker instead. I do not take time away from my family to play/study poker - they come first. So what am I doing that is wrong?

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there a limited amount of capital available in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ultimately, yes. But we are nowhere near reaching the point where all the resources of the planet are in use. Moreover, the sun will continue to add energy to the planet for the foreseeable future. Indeed, nothing short of a global catastrophe (i.e., meteor strike, plague, nuclear war, etc.) would stop capital growth anytime in the foreseeable future. Whenever we figure out methods of using natural resources more efficiently, we effectively put new capital into circulation.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume "harm others" = "they lose money"

I'm confused. To win in the stock market, someone must lose.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true. Here is a story to illustrate.

You make more money at work than you spend. After payday, you pay your expenses and then shove the extra under your mattress. One day, after you have been working for several years, I offer to sell you stock in my business. I explain that I need money to finance production of a new technology I created that allows farmers produce more wheat per acre. You buy the stock. I take the proceeds, produce the new technology, and make a zillion dollars. I pay you dividends, and the value of your stock increases.

Then you meet Jim. Jim tells you about a great idea he has that will allow people to heat their homes more cheaply. He needs cash to pay for his research to prove that he is right. You think Jim's idea is great, so you sell the stock in my company to Joe, who had a bunch of money hidden under his mattress. You buy stock in Jim's company. I keep making zillions of dollars and paying Joe dividends. With the money you paid Jim, he creates a new technology. Joe then offers to buy all of the stock in Jim's company, because he thinks Jim's idea will make a zillion dollars, and he has a bunch of cash lying around that he received as dividends from my company. You sell your stock in Jim's company to Joe and retire to a cheaply heated house, feasting on abundant wheat products all the days of your life. Jim's company makes a zillion dollars. Joe then sells his stock to Fred, Mike and Stew, who have money under their pillows, and retires to Florida . . . .

Who are the losers in this story?

[Peter666]

BluffThis is right, and in addition, gambling and betting falls under the morality of aleatory contracts. Gambling has the same moral implications of a life insurance contract.

AthenianStranger, anyone can always determine whether a law is just or not based on its relation to the Ten commandments and Moral theology. Many laws are simply morally relative or not laws at all. There is no obligation to follow these laws. And stupid laws are not laws to begin with.

And give an example of a pre World War Two sovereign nation whose laws make the Catholic Church hypocritical.

[BZ_Zorro]

Tough question.

Poker is not immoral because it is completely fair. Everyone has complete responsibility for their every action and control over all their choices (bet, raise, fold, leave the table). Their is no coercion. The cards are blind to favor.

That said, as a lifestyle it is certainly nothing great. Your goal at the poker table is entirely selfish (taking money off other people). You produce nothing of use to others or society as you would in any job, yet you continue to consume goods that other hard working people produce. You are essentially no different to someone on welfare.

So while I don't think poker is immoral, as a career or an addiction it is definitely "a moral and social wasteland" as some Christian commentators have described it.

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
is it anywhere stated in the bible that gambling is a sin?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure, do a search of bible sites.

Look, the simple fact is that gambling, especially predatory gambling like poker, is not in line with Christian values and the general message in the bible (both old and new testament). It can clearly be considered a sin.

You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

This article might provide a bit of clarification.
http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/gambling/abp/a0029493.cfm

excerpt:
[ QUOTE ]

The 10th Commandment (Exodus 20:17) prohibits Christians from coveting another's possessions. Many gamble to obtain the resources of others without providing anything of value in return. Some have rightly described gambling as consensual theft. In Matthew 6:19-21 Jesus offers instruction, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Work has been part of God's design for mankind from the very beginning. We are to invest our time and energies into labors that supply our needs and those of our families (Proverbs 31, 2 Thessalonians 3:10, 1 Timothy 5:8) and that allow us to share with others (Ephesians 4:28). Scripture is replete with exhortations toward industriousness and admonitions against slothfulness. Gambling, meanwhile, portends something for nothing. Indeed, gambling advertising and marketing frequently belittles hard work and diligence.


[/ QUOTE ]

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Look, the simple fact is that gambling, especially predatory gambling like poker, is not in line with Christian values and the general message in the bible (both old and new testament). It can clearly be considered a sin.

You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.



[/ QUOTE ]

There is no occupation that is safe from violating Christian values. Paul warned that already some were preaching the Gospel for the sake of sordid gain. If for Christians preaching is the highest calling and yet can still be sinful, so much more for every human activity. Yet Paul said it's a good thing that the Gospel was being preached, even if the preachers had evil motives.

Those who want to bind the conscience of people who have been freed by the death of Christ add much to their already heavy burden. It's generally legalistic church goers who do this, but non-Christians revel when they think they have found hypocrisy.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

That said, as a lifestyle it is certainly nothing great. Your goal at the poker table is entirely selfish (taking money off other people). You produce nothing of use to others or society as you would in any job, yet you continue to consume goods that other hard working people produce. You are essentially no different to someone on welfare.


[/ QUOTE ]

This misses much of the value of poker. For me personally, poker has been one of the most valuable activities I've ever undertaken. Though it can build character, there is nothing like it to reveal your character. Poker has been a major part of my growth as a Christian for the last 10 years.

As for value to society, if the game itself has value (I believe it does), participating in the game is legitimate. No one, repeat NO ONE, is indispensible. Whoever you think in history has contributed the most to society was unnescessary - whatever he did could have and would have been done by someone else. No, Shakespeare's plays would not have been written by someone else, but literature would still exist. The worker bee on the assembly line contributes nothing measurable to society as the exact same number of cars would be produced if he wasn't there. The reason his work is valuable is because producing cars is valuable. So with poker, if the game has any societal value.

[BZ_Zorro]

Did you even read the post?

[ QUOTE ]
There is no occupation that is safe from violating Christian values.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not. But gambling as an occupation is void of any value except selfish ones. It is not a respectable or worthy way of earning a living, however you look at it.

Just about every other occupation produces something and has some value to others and society. Baking bread, cleaning toilets, selling houses, reporting the news, patrolling the streets, teaching kids, singing, running a company are respectable ways of earning a living. You're actually doing something for others and society and getting rewarded for it.

Gambling for a living is a lazy, greedy and irresponsible way of living a God given life.

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
This misses much of the value of poker. For me personally, poker has been one of the most valuable activities I've ever undertaken.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly my point. Sure poker sharpens your skills and awareness, but so does planning and executing a bank robbery.

I have no problem with playing poker sometimes for a bit of fun/money. You do need some kind of outlet. However some posters have said poker is what they do for a living. This is definitely not in line with Christian ideals or bible teachings.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Did you even read the post?


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read mine?

I've already answered the rest of what you say.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

This is definitely not in line with Christian ideals or bible teachings.


[/ QUOTE ]

Chapter and verse, please.

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
>This is definitely not in line with Christian ideals or bible teachings.
Chapter and verse, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got to be kidding me. Are you a christian?

Read my previous posts, and the link I gave in previous post (which, like I said, you didn't do), there's plenty in there.

[ QUOTE ]
As for value to society, if the game itself has value (I believe it does), participating in the game is legitimate.

[/ QUOTE ]
How does playing poker for a living contribute to society?

[ QUOTE ]

Poker has been a major part of my growth as a Christian for the last 10 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is going in my quote collection.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Read my previous posts, and the link I gave in previous post (which, like I said, you didn't do), there's plenty in there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I read that link. Did you read my post about legalistic church goers?

[ QUOTE ]

What social value do you claim poker has? How about internet poker?


[/ QUOTE ]

At least the same social value as football and the latest Hollywood revenge movie. Probably more. I expect a very good deal more than reality television.

[ QUOTE ]

This is going in my quote collection.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks but I don't think I acutally deserve it.

[Mempho]

The entire capitalist system is built just like the poker table. If you own a business, you try to beat your competitors. If you've ever even owned Wal-Mart stock, your gains have been at the expense of the small mom & pop stores across the country.

If you've ever owned shares or worked for a bank, where does your money come from? I can tell you (having worked for a bank) that the majority of bank revenues come from fees. Who gets charged fees? Mostly those who can't afford to be charged fees. Also, the people who get charged the highest interest rates for credit are the people who can least afford it. It's not a fair system, but its the best that's out there.

In our world, however, capitalism is the best system yet. It's not equitable and it's not fair.

Think about this: Luck is actually a great equalizer. There is more luck in poker than there is in Monopoly. (I'm sure many of you have pulled the infamous triple trade before). There is even less luck in the real world. Don't get me wrong: luck is still very much alive out there. The fish (in general) just get eaten up more quickly and viciously in the real world. They end up as slaves to the rich unless they get really lucky.

The Bible states that the race does not go to the fastest or the strongest....because time and chance overtake them all. (If anyone could give me this verse, I would like to have the chapter and verse).

I do hate the fact that talent is no guarantee in life. But, then again, isn't even having talent (intelligence, athletic ability, sexual attractiveness, emotional intelligence, energy, etc.) partially a matter of luck to begin with? After all, I didn't select my IQ. With that in mind, be wary of looking down on others in society. (Yes, this means at the poker table, too. A lot of people just don't know better).


Life is a mixture of time, chance, and skill. There are no guarantees except the ones that God explicitly expresses.

[Mempho]

Don't forget that they take the "rake" too.

[Mempho]

Then you consider the "game" of Capitalism to be sinful.

[The Dude]

While there are many reasons somebody might say "It is wrong for me to games, and here's why..." there is only one legitimate argument I have ever heard as to why it would be wrong for any Christian to be involved in gambling. The notion that the overall effect of gambling on our society is so bad that, while it may not be harmful to a specific Christian who gambles, the net effect on society is so harmful that it is wrong to support the industry in any way - and being a customer of the industry helps it to grow and become even more harmful.

God does not say that gambling is in and of itself a sin. Gambling does not require greediness or other sinful natures (in fact, I would argue that in many cases becoming a healthy gambler has a VERY positive influence on other areas of one's life). The "it is permissable for me to eat meat, but if it causes my brother to stumble it is a sin for me" passage is really the only valid argument. And while that notion is very often situationally correct, to try and apply that to the entire population is short-sighted and based on ignorant assumptions and misconceptions.

[NotReady]

Good post. I had the meat eating passage in mind when I mentioned the image problem in another post.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Ecc. 9:

11 I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor wealth to the discerning nor favor to men of ability; for time and chance overtake them all.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe much of Ecclesiastes is done kind of tongue in cheek - what the correct worldview would be if God didn't exist.

Poker is one very, very, very good instance of this.

[BZ_Zorro]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused. To win in the stock market, someone must lose
It's a zero sum game (actually a negative sum game) with commissions and slippage expenses.

It's very similiar to poker in many respects.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. The stock market works by providing capital for the production of goods. It is one of the driving forces of the economy.

It works by providing resources to companies and individuals who wish to produce something, but don't have the resources (capital) to do so. In essence, it brings together all of the world's investors with all of the inventors and entrepreneurs, so that goods can be produced. It's like an enormous lending system but with positive equity.

Trading shares that have already been floated is only part of what the stock market does.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
My church, the Catholic Church, teaches that gambling is not in itself sinful but only becomes so if once gambles with money necessary to provide the livelihood for himself/family or necessary to meet his otherwise just obligations

[/ QUOTE ]

Much of the income I generate to meet my obligation of providing for my family is derived by playing poker. I suppose if I decided to stop playing poker, I would be committing a sin by not adequately providing for my family.

Stu

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My church, the Catholic Church, teaches that gambling is not in itself sinful but only becomes so if once gambles with money necessary to provide the livelihood for himself/family or necessary to meet his otherwise just obligations

[/ QUOTE ]

Much of the income I generate to meet my obligation of providing for my family is derived by playing poker. I suppose if I decided to stop playing poker, I would be committing a sin by not adequately providing for my family.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. A pro's bankroll isn't what is meant. But you would only be committing a sin if you quit and didn't do something else productive when you could like digging ditches for $8 an hour.

[DCWildcat]

Much of this is absolutely ridiculous.

We need a working definition of Christianity. All Christian theology cannot simply be lumped into one category, that's preposterous. Southern Baptist thought would hold that all gambling is sinful. Period. A more liberal church (such as the catholic church) could see much good in it, provided it be safe for the individual.

If a poker player had the ability to earn $200,000 a year, with little variance, the more liberal churches would have no problem with such a profession. It's the threat of greed, addiction, neglect of social responsibilities, etc., that would make many christians balk. Remove these threats, and it's not a problem. While slot machine players may not be able to justify their habits with Christianity, those who gamble intelligently--I'll let you decide what that means--may easily be able to. This is hardly debatable.