Early WSoP tactics for Dead Money

[luvrhino]

I have a seat in the Main Event this year thanks to the generosity of EmpirePoker. However, i'm severely out of practice since i can't look at a computer screen long enough to play a Sit & Go, let alone a multi-table tourney. Even when in practice, the strategy i used to win the 248-player tourney to win a seat on EmpirePoker isn't tenable against players that know what they're doing. Early in the tourney, i played very tight. I made a lot of Limit-style bets when i did play, in part because i was comparatively more familiar with Limit, but also because i had such monster hands that i was afraid i wouldn't get any customers, otherwise. After getting called down or bluffed back at with these monsters early, i later was able to steal blinds and pots with small bets...my opponents being afraid what could lurk behind such small bets. If i was played back at, i could release my hand without having risked much. Needless to say, being able to successfully bluff with small bets an awesome position to be in, but that simply won't work among the non-clueless.

Thus, i need strategy advice for the WSoP. I've read and reviewed Mr. Sklansky's TPfAP (http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Tournament%20Poker%20for%20Advanced%20P layers) and intend on reading Harrington on Hold'em (http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Harrington%20Volume%20I). I still plan on being mostly quite tight, especially early. Along those lines, i know not to risk my stack to on small advantages.

However, if i have a big-time professional at my starting table, i'll know that he similarly doesn't want to risk his tourney early on coin-flips...especially with all this Dead Money out there. I think i should exploit this fact, given the opportunity. If heads-up against one of these pros, i think it'd be a good idea for me to raise All-in when it appears to be a toss-up, realizing that should muck.

Of course, it can be hard to determine when, exactly, it is a toss-up and that i know the Big Time Pro realizes this as well. Though, let's say on the first hand of the WSoP i have K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif out of one of the blinds, BTP limps from early position, and the flop comes J/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check-raise BTP and he re-raises to around t1500. At this point, i figure that there's no way i'm going to out-play a professional on the Turn and River while out of position on my ginormous draw and that, no matter what he has, he can't feel very secure about his hand, whether it be a set, two-pair, OESD, nut-flush draw, or whatever. Thus, i should just go All-in, since he really shouldn't call. In fact, i'd almost want to expose my hand (if legal(?)), to show him that even if he has a set, he's no more than a 57% or 58% favorite (i think) and that he should muck(?). Well, at least Phil Helmuth would muck...and then brag about this great laydown for the rest of his life.

The theory behind exposing being that i don't want a coin-flip either, but want to encourage him to fold a slight favorite. I wouldn't usually lose any equity, since there's no way a pro would call an All-in bet here without a set. However, there's a slight possibility that he'd call All-in with A/images/graemlins/spade.gifX/images/graemlins/spade.gif (especially 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif), when he would have folded otherwise, but that seems rather remote.

I realize that i couldn't try this gambit too often, because i'll run into a situation where i think it's a coin-flip and it turns out i'm a huge dog. However, i'm curious of the general opinion of such a play for pseudo-Dead Money vs. a solid professional?

----

My other question is how does table break-ups work at the WSoP Main Event? How much in advance would i know that my table's being broken up, if at all? Also, do tables get adjusted at every opportunity to eliminate a table or do they do several at once?

I assume everyone's reshuffled before Day 2, but i also assume that i may be at the same table throughout Day 1?

[Punker]

To get through 6600 players, you won't be able to avoid close gambles. A lot will depend on your starting table and the relative skill of your opposition.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
However, if i have a big-time professional at my starting table, i'll know that he similarly doesn't want to risk his tourney early on coin-flips...especially with all this Dead Money out there.

[/ QUOTE ]
In general I think that's correct, although be careful -- there are a few "big time professionals" who will be looking to gamble on day 1, in order to either build a huge stack or bust out.

It's against the rules to expose your cards during the play of a hand.

In the example you posed, your reraise is not going to make anyone fold JJ on a flop of J/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. If you are certain your opponent has a set, then just call with K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif (and fold on the turn if you miss and your opponent makes a sizable bet). But you could try the reraise all-in play with K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif against a BTP on a flop of J/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
My other question is how does table break-ups work at the WSoP Main Event? How much in advance would i know that my table's being broken up, if at all? Also, do tables get adjusted at every opportunity to eliminate a table or do they do several at once?

[/ QUOTE ]
In theory they break one table at a time. They'll probably start at one end of the room and proceed sequentially, so if you pay attention you can get a good idea whether your table will break soon.

It's possible you'll be at the same table throughout day 1.

[Malachii]

If Phil Helmuth is at your table, push with any two everytime it's big blind. If nothing else, it will be entertaining.

[silles]

[ QUOTE ]
If Phil Helmuth is at your table, push with any two everytime it's big blind. If nothing else, it will be entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[shb2015]

I'm in roughly the same situation, luvrhino. I won a qualifier online and don't have any live experience against top players.

For people like us, I think the best bet is to push on a tossup or two early and try to either force them out of a good pot, or worst case, have a 50/50 shot of doubling up.

We should also be playing aggressively before the flop, since that negates some of the skill involved. It's not pretty, but I'm not worried about asthetics if it helps me survive.

It is pretty funny to know I am dead money...

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Thus, i need strategy advice for the WSoP. I've read and reviewed Mr. Sklansky's TPfAP (http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Tournament%20Poker%20for%20Advanced%20P layers) and intend on reading Harrington on Hold'em (http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Harrington%20Volume%20I). I still plan on being mostly quite tight, especially early. Along those lines, i know not to risk my stack to on small advantages.

[/ QUOTE ]

You linked these just in case people here were unfamiliar with them? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[unfrgvn]

Are you familiar with the move in or fold system in TPFAP? Seems like you might be a candidate to give it a try.

[luvrhino]

I'm not that bad where i'd be better off doing the all-in or fold system. I'm profitable in $55 NL Sit & Go's (though i prefer Limit) and i've read a fair amount. In fact, i'm fairly sure that i'd be above the median point among all WSoP Main Event entrants. However, i've had little experience with multi-table NL tourneys and live poker, so i'm skeptical about my post-flop play against a Big Time Professional, especially out of position.

I was just curious how feasible it'd be to exploit an intelligent BTP's tendency to avoid close decisions for their whole stack early...especially since with patience they'd figure they'd be able to later outplay all the Dead Money when it's not close.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm skeptical about my post-flop play against a Big Time Professional, especially out of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

So avoid post-flop play out of position with a pro then. If you have the cards, then get in there raising big to take it down, or fold and wait for a better spot.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you familiar with the move in or fold system in TPFAP? Seems like you might be a candidate to give it a try.

[/ QUOTE ]

That system was developed for someone who literally didn't know how to play poker. Some of the ideas in it may work for you, but I don't recommend open raising allin preflop until the blinds are really big.

There are going to be a lot of other fish at the beginning, along with a large proportion of the pros and semipros in the world. You won't be up against mostly top pros in the beginning. Even the final table last year had very few name players.

I would just play good poker early. Remember it is deep money and don't play like a loose fish going allin on marginal hands on any street.

This thread has some ideas for someone who is serious about preparing.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2674354&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1

[45suited]

I've thought about this one to pull against Helmuth: Limp re-raise all in on him early with absolute junk, then show you hand. You'd probably make the tv broadcast just so they could show his blow up after he agonized about making his "big laydown".

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[luvrhino]

Considering the large number of less than stellar players at this year's WSoP, how important do you think it is to vary one's play on the first day?

On one hand, i'm likely going to be sitting at the same table with the same players for most, if not all, of the day. This would indicate that i shouldn't be predictable. On the other hand, there's no point in advertising that i played 87s from EP, tried stealing blinds with KTo, or limped pre-flop with AA, if people aren't going to notice.

Does it make more sense instead to play consistently tight and solid, varying my play only based on the particular opponent?

Obviously, if i have appear to have a relatively clueful table, i will change gears a little, though still generally playing tight.

[paperboyNC]

If you can, go to a casino and play in a few large multi-table tournaments. You don't even need 6600 people. You just need a tournament that pays top 10% and has over 100 people. You can find a lot in atlantic city for as little as $50 buy-ins.

[luvrhino]

Yeah, i'm going to Lake Charles, LA this weekend to play in a few small (50-60 players) tourneys there. I went a couple times back in November to practice before going to the Bellagio Five Diamond Poker Classic. Unfortunately, i went off and had brain surgery instead, with EmpirePoker generously transferring my entry to the WSoP (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=1408623&page=9 &view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=).

The level of play there is pretty horrid, at least in the $100+$15 w/ Rebuys tourneys i entered. Then again, as i can't beat QJo with QQ if my life depended on it, i busted out both times.

My first round isn't until the third day, so i'll find a few Vegas tourneys for practice while i wait.

[Scooterdoo]

It always makes sense to change gears versus the same players. Just don't get carried away with it. Also, no reason to show bluffs since if you do steal and come in with less than stellar hands every once in a while you will get caught now and then and often have to show the hands anyway. Also, if the players are any good at your table they will figure out what kind of hands you are playing simply based on the frequency you are playing and from what positions you are making the play (over many, many hands). Even if you are catching lots of hands and playing lots of pots realize that it will look to your opponents that you are loosening up so they will assume you are bluffing. On the other hand if you are a loose player but are going through a card dead period and are not able to do any steals (because other people are beating you into the pot) they will perceive you as tight. So the point is to be aware what you think the other players think of you.

BTW, I've been playing in lots of the preliminary events with very big fields and you shouldn't assume that there are lots of players who are much worse than you. While everyone isn't a great player, most of the people understand the game fairly well and good portion of each table will be comprised players that are as strong as the average reader of these forums -- at least this is what I've experienced.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I've been playing in lots of the preliminary events with very big fields and you shouldn't assume that there are lots of players who are much worse than you. While everyone isn't a great player, most of the people understand the game fairly well and good portion of each table will be comprised players that are as strong as the average reader of these forums -- at least this is what I've experienced.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main event attracts more fish -- and also more world class players.

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, i'm fairly sure that i'd be above the median point among all WSoP Main Event entrants.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough, all 6599 other players in the WSOP Main Event will also believe this about themselves.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

So avoid post-flop play out of position with a pro then.

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly...I think you guys are all over-estimating the general skill-level of most of the WSOP field (as well as some of the top-name "pros").
Just because they have more 'live' experience doesn't necessarily make them better than you.

Lots of online-qualifiers kind of 'lucked' their way into a seat.
If you are one of these players (that is...you don't play many tourneys online either or just aren't THAT good at them) then maybe you could consider this type of plan.


Here's my story:

Feb - Qualify for PPM cruise by playing a ton of raked-hands in a promotion they had. I hadn't even won a qualifier to get there.
It's a $10k tourney with 740 players...90% were online qualifiers.
My 'live' tourney experience consisted of 2 "events".
26th out of 27 in a $35 re-buy at 4am at the Gold Strike in Tunica almost 2 years prior.
5th out of 10 in a single-table $120 'satellite' for a $1k entry-chip to a prelim event.
I had played less than 2 hours of live tourney-poker in my career.

I played a ton of SNG's and MTT's in the month or so leading up to the PPM tourney. I got better at them and thought about them and analyzed my game as I went along.

On the cruise I finished 177th out of 740 to make it into the money and win $5215.
I was 65th out of 280 heading into day 2....but I blew off some chips in some blind battles and was left clinging on for the money.
On day 1 I made a move or 2 on Chip Jett. He had a huge stack and was pushing around everyone at the table. I knew he was reading me as passive-tight post-flop so I took a chance.
The pros have brains but they aren't freaking psychic.

Just play the best you can.


Now - I qualified for the WSOP on Stars. I sucked-out with my 33 vs. 88 against a 'name' pro when we were heads-up.
Basically...I shouldn't even be there. My tourney game IS improving...but I really really lucked my way into it.

I have played some more tourneys online and have been doing decently and gaining confidence in my judgement.

I also played 2 more live events to get the 'feel' of playing live. The $35 rebuys in Tunica on the weeknights.
I finished 9th out of 66 to win a bit more than my entry-fee back.
Then I finished 14th out of 75 to just miss making the money.

These little live events with REALLY fast blind structures have helped me tremendously I believe.
The nerves were pretty high in the 1st event.
When I played the same event the next week I didn't have nearly as many nerves. I was adjusted to it.


On the PPM cruise and in the last 2 re-buy events I have played I have noticed SEVERAL bad players.

the quality of play on the PPM cruise with all those online-qualifiers was particularly bad imo and didn't differ much from a regular online-tourney.
I suspect you will see much of the same thing at the WSOP main-event since SOOOOO many of the players will be just your garden-variety 'barely better than average' online-qualifier.


What you have to remember is that MANY of your opponents will be just as new to the WSOP and live-tourney play as you are.
They will be timid and just not very good. Then they will realize they are playing timidly and might make a really bad call at some point and find themselves on the rail.


Go into with confidence and play the best you can.
If you have a good hand against Negreneau or Hellmuth then trust whatever instincts you might have and try not to out-think yourself JUST because it's a big-name player.
With so many tables and online-qualifiers there's a pretty good chance you won't be up against very many of the big-name guys anyway.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, all 6599 other players in the WSOP Main Event will also believe this about themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]
Make that 6,598. I know I suck.

[regisd]

One thing to remember is that you have one hour rounds. That gives you *plenty* of time to wait and make your move. A lot of these folks are going to be looking to gamble big in the early rounds. You could try that, or you could stay out of their way until you know you've got the best of it. I wouldn't try opening up and starting to steal lots of blinds until the first few rounds are over. (if your opponent is "bad" enough that he won't fold in case he makes his runner-runner draw, then you cannot bluff them out or steal their blind, so don't try to.)

[luvrhino]

Right. They're actually two hour rounds with each player starting with 200xBB (http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/structures/structure_42.html). In online tourneys, i rarely steal blinds in early rounds, which then allows me to more easily steal them later when they're actually worth something. The same will be true at the WSoP, though i'm likely to need to vary my play at least a little.

I just figure that a Big Time Professional would realize that you can't win on the first day and therefore would be unlikely to risk his whole stack on a close decision just to double up. I was wondering how feasible it'd be to exploit that to take a couple medium-size pots away from him by threatening his whole stack. I'll by no means want him to call in this situation, but, in case he does, i will have many outs unless i severely misread the hand.

I'll be happy to survive the first day with 10K-20K chips, though i obviously wouldn't mind more.

[regisd]

[ QUOTE ]
Right. They're actually two hour rounds with each player starting with 200xBB (http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/structures/structure_42.html).

[/ QUOTE ]

oh! i had thought it was 1 hour. that's even better.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be happy to survive the first day with 10K-20K chips, though i obviously wouldn't mind more.

[/ QUOTE ]

that seems a reasonable approach. good luck!

[puzzlemoney]

Just a question for those of you who consider yourselves dead money in the main event:

What made you decide to play rather than take the cash or sell your seat?

I haven't tried to qualify, but I always thought that if I did, I'd just take the cash unless I had become much better than I am at the moment. I can imagine, though, the temptation to give it a shot would be enormous if I felt I had the bankroll to reasonably pass up the cash...

[gcDanno]

Honestly, while i am very much looking forward to a free vacation, and feel i have a better than avg chance to money in the ME, I would take the cash value of the seat if given the chance. However, Stars stipulates that you MUST play your first entry. There is no cash option available, which is just as good anyway.

Heck, I tried to chop when HU during a $30 rebuy event, but that fell through because he didn't have 6k in his stars account. I would have gladly walked away with the cash in that situation.

gc

[Leonardo]

I think you are way over analyzing the situation. Just play your game. Dont push all in to get a coin flip with a pro, just play your game. Have fun, relax, there are ten players at your table. If you are really concerned just dont get involved in big pots with the pros, but i think that is even overdoing it. I cant emphasize this enough - forget the pros - most arent that good anyway - just play your game

[luvrhino]

I really don't consider myself Dead Money so much as that's how i'd be perceived by others. If my stamina is okay (and i can overcome my current bout with diarrhea...just thought i'd share...you're welcome), i suspect i'm around 10% to cash or so, out of practice or not.

However, to a Big Time Professional i'd definitely be considered Dead Money until i proved otherwise. Figured i might want to exploit that interpretation.

As far as giving up my seat, i would prefer the $10K in cash. However, EmpirePoker wouldn't allow that, and even if they did, it'd be an incredibly dickish move on my part given that Emipre generously transfered my $15.3K WPT entry to the WSoP and gave me the $5300 cash difference after i decided to have brain surgery instead of playing in the first tourney (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2679749&page=&view=&s b=5&o=).

Empire deserves the positive PR that would come with me being profiled as one of those boring feel-good stories on ESPN.

[Bartman387]

out of curiosity how many people or what percentage of the field money?

[gcDanno]

Had a little fun with excel and plugged in the numbers...
(note that 6% of the prize pool is withheld by the house).

WSOP 2005 Payouts (http://www.danina.net/book2.htm)

[Bartman387]

I should have asked this with my last question, but what day roughly what day is it normal to get into the money? Sorry if I'm threadjacking, but as possible dead money I'm interested

[kutuz_off]

1. I don't think the seat I won is transferrable.
2. It's a good vacation. I need a good vacation.
3. Who knows how long I'll be interested in poker, this way I have something to remember. Money is just money (no, I'm not rich, but I have a decent job), participating in the World Championship against best players is a really good experience to put on your "Things I've done" list.
4. It is possible for deadest of the dead money to place in the money. This is not chess.
5. Take taxes into account. WSOP seat is not taxable essentially, while cash is.

[zambonidrivr]

Punker, when does your book come out?

[burningyen]

I didn't have the option to sell my seat. The MTT satellite I won also gave me a 4500% ROI in cash in addition to the seat, so I'm looking at the WSOP as a freeroll.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
However, to a Big Time Professional i'd definitely be considered Dead Money until i proved otherwise. Figured i might want to exploit that interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Luvrhino, the tactic you described in your original post doesn't really depend on the BTP perceiving you as Dead Money. In fact the opposite is true: if the BTP has bottom set (for example) and you reraise all-in with a monster draw, you want the BTP to be thinking "this player wouldn't take a risk like that without at least middle set", not "this is some internet player who is being way too aggressive with TPTK".

[ QUOTE ]
Emipre generously transfered my $15.3K WPT entry to the WSoP and gave me the $5300 cash difference after i decided to have brain surgery instead of playing in the first tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's good to know that Empire did the right thing -- I remember reading about this situation on 2+2 last December, and thinking that Empire was being a little greedy by pocketing the $5K difference. Glad to hear that they returned all your equity to you, and of course also glad that you made it through the surgery successfully!