Positive results, 2nd time at a b & m.

[YoungOne]

Hey, thanks for the replies/tips from my first post. Great news, bought small stakes holdem and read it in a day (itchin to play and win). Went back to the local b & m and played some 2/4 limit holdem and won this time.

First session- buy in $100 and then another 40(-$140)15 hrs
2nd session- buy in $100 (+$127) 8 hrs

I plugged my leaks. ( stayed cool against bad beats, played right, shorter session and my cards held up to them river rats.)

Is it just me or do I feel like it's too easy. I might have been running good and i notice that my competition got better and better as i played (especially the fishes). They stopped calling on the river and sometimes the freaken table all folded (utg + 2) when i raised to $4 preflop which was freaken amazing but bad because i had pocket queens.

I might be paranoid, but i have doubts that i can keep winning by playing solid poker (profits comes from fishes, not good players). It seems like my style is too predictable and good players know what i am doing. (therefore, i won't get my expected goal of at least $100/a session).

Is it normal to feel this way or not when starting out? discuss..... (hope to be a winning player)

thanks for the comments/replies

fellow poster and poker newbie,

YoungOne

[swede123]

Aiming for a consistent $100 per session profit in 2/4 is probably a bit unrealistic.

Swede

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Aiming for a consistent $100 per session profit in 2/4 is probably a bit unrealistic. Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

...unless you're pulling very long sessions. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[YoungOne]

[ QUOTE ]
Aiming for a consistent $100 per session profit in 2/4 is probably a bit unrealistic.

Swede

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Swede,

Oh yeah, my first session I was up $140 (holding $240 on table) but lost it back because of tilt and playing too long.

2nd time, u know (+$127)

So, what would be a good expectation at 2/4 limit holdem? if not $100...

thanks,

YoungOne

[mmmmmbrother]

you wont come out above the felt every time

[topbrelan]

Hi YO --

$100 is definitely a bit too ambitious at 2/4 (unless a freakishly good run of cards comes your way and you play for like 15 hours) - I usually don't even make this at 4/8 unless I play 8-10 hours or so.

I'd say buy-in for like 150-160 and try to fill a rack. (assuming $2 chips, so 100 chips = $200)

As for strategy, it's little use trying to get too tricky at low limit, but once you start winning, use that image to start representing hands, but tighten up if you start getting caught. I once got someone to fold A-Q when I had KK and raised preflop and an A flopped because he had seen me only show down the nuts the whole session! Rare though... unless there are total LAGs at your table, straightforward play should net you profit, just like a baby NL game. Good luck!

[Tom1975]

The standard win rate that most people cite as a realistic goal for play at a B&M room is one big bet per hour (usually expressed as 1BB/hr). So if you plan on making your typical session 8 hours you could expect a win of $32/session on average. This doesn't mean you'll walk away with an extra $32 in your pocket every time you play. You'll have some sessions where you break even, some where you win a $100, some where you lose $100, etc. It's possible to go on long losing streaks and you have to have the patience, discipline, and bankroll to ride them out.

You asked "Is it just me or do I feel like it's too easy?"

The answer is it's not that easy. The key lies in your statement "my cards held up to them river rats". Trust me, you will have plenty of sessions where this is not the case, and it seems like every time your flop two pair with your AK, the fish playing J3 sooted hits their flush on the river. I'm not trying to discourage you with all this; I just want to give you a realistic idea of what you can expect. Good luck.

[canis582]

They won't be as likely to fold to your queens if you raise preflop more often. But that is advanced theory.

[Stinglikeabee]

Congrats. Keep playing a solid game. Being tricky won't help at low limits and with more than 2 callers. And you will continually get action with your good hands because there's a reason these people are playing 2-4.

And you probably won't make a rack each time but keep records and hopefully you'll make a good BB/hour rate. Just make sure not to let your losing sessions turn into massacres because of tilt.

[eh923]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it just me or do I feel like it's too easy. I might have been running good and i notice that my competition got better and better as i played (especially the fishes). They stopped calling on the river and sometimes the freaken table all folded (utg + 2) when i raised to $4 preflop which was freaken amazing but bad because i had pocket queens.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you noticed the fish getting better against you, your mind is playing tricks on you. Think about this:
1. Folding to your river bet is a no-brainer, even to horrible players, when their draws don't come in and they don't even have a pair.
2. Folder to a PF raise is not too uncommon, even for horrible players, when their 5-gapped cards are unsuited.

SSH is a great book, and studying it will improve your game a lot. But make sure you read the section about the brain finding patterns that don't actually exist!

Anyway, it is quite normal at first for your attitude to reflect your results...particularly after a winning session. But make sure you stay focused on the important thing, which is "how well did I play?", not "how much did i win?"

[YoungOne]

eh923,

thanks for the tips. Good point, i'm too focused on the money. I think it'll be better if i focus on how well i play.

I notice that when i receive a bad beat, i want to be super aggressive the very next hand (but i stop myself, which is a good thing because i usually see a trash hand).

Funny thing is, i sometimes win with trash hands too but i only play them in good spots (against one or two opponents).

For example, this was a beautiful but lucky win. I"m on the button with 2 3 o, and there are 4 limpers, bb raises to $4. Everyone calls, including me. Flop comes Q 5 5, sb checks and bb bets $2, fold, fold, fold, fold, I look over to her (fine looking lady too) smile and raise to $4 because i think she didn't hit the flop. sb folds and bb calls. 4th st is a 2. ( I pair). She checks, (pot is pretty big, i suspect she has high cards or a medium pair.) So I check, river is a blank. She checks, i feel she'll call my bet so i check too.

We flip and she turns over A K o, i turn over 2 3 o. ( I win with a pair of twos) Awesome win....I'm pretty happy the way i played it. For some strange reason, my reads felt perfect playing this hand. It actually gave me alot of confidence, and hope to keep this up at 2/4 limit holdem.

(Sorry if this sounds like bragging, but i felt i played well and do realize that it's a bad beat that i gave her.)

-YoungOne

[canis582]

Bet the turn.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, this was a beautiful but lucky win. I"m on the button with 2 3 o, and there are 4 limpers, bb raises to $4. Everyone calls, including me. Flop comes Q 5 5, sb checks and bb bets $2, fold, fold, fold, fold, I look over to her (fine looking lady too) smile and raise to $4 because i think she didn't hit the flop. sb folds and bb calls. 4th st is a 2. ( I pair). She checks, (pot is pretty big, i suspect she has high cards or a medium pair.) So I check, river is a blank. She checks, i feel she'll call my bet so i check too.

We flip and she turns over A K o, i turn over 2 3 o. ( I win with a pair of twos) Awesome win....I'm pretty happy the way i played it. For some strange reason, my reads felt perfect playing this hand. It actually gave me alot of confidence, and hope to keep this up at 2/4 limit holdem.

(Sorry if this sounds like bragging, but i felt i played well and do realize that it's a bad beat that i gave her.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but your play in this hand is atrocious. I would argue that there is *never* a right spot to limp 23o in a live game - it is just a tiny notch better than 72o, which even fish know is the worst possible hand in hold 'em, and you know the flop will be at least 5-handed. Calling the PF raise was your next mistake - even though you are getting better pot odds, this hand is just too horrible to have any real chance of winning.

Your raise on the flop is debatable at best. Even if your read is reliable, are you confident you can move her off of her hand? A lot of people will just call down with AK here, not to mention the fact that she's got lots of outs to pair up. On the turn, you really have to bet your hand here if you still put her on overcards - now she's got 9 outs to beat you (3 As, 3 Ks, 3 Qs to counterfit your 2 pair) and you have to charge her to draw (or hopefully fold). Your river check is the only street I agree with.

I don't mean to be harsh, btw. I remember the first time I played in a casino - I made $250 at a $4-$8 game in like 5 hours, and I though I was king of the world. I think back on that night now, though, I realize that I was just a total luckbox. I'd do things like limp in MP with K5o, hit 2 pair on the flop, and think "this game's too easy!".

[YoungOne]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

canis582,

Good point, betting turn would have been the right move but was kind of scared that she had a medium pair. I didn't want to lose more money and felt the pot was good enough. It was probably around $20.

-YoungOne

[eh923]

[ QUOTE ]
(Sorry if this sounds like bragging, but i felt i played well and do realize that it's a bad beat that i gave her.)

[/ QUOTE ]
No apology necessary. I don't think that you're bragging at all. On the other hand, I don't think you played that well AT ALL. But since you got lucky, you got the chance to look back at it like you played it well.

Pre-flop, that's about as easy a fold as humanly possible. Your flop raise was also just chip-spewing. The rest of the hand is inconsequential.

According to TwoDimes (www.twodimes.net), with that board and opponents hole cards, you would win a measly 22% of the time. And that's actually favorable to what could've happened if the BB had a pocket pair. Playing well does not put you in this horrible position!

[YoungOne]

(Sorry if this sounds like bragging, but i felt i played well and do realize that it's a bad beat that i gave her.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but your play in this hand is atrocious. I would argue that there is *never* a right spot to limp 23o in a live game - it is just a tiny notch better than 72o, which even fish know is the worst possible hand in hold 'em, and you know the flop will be at least 5-handed. Calling the PF raise was your next mistake - even though you are getting better pot odds, this hand is just too horrible to have any real chance of winning.

Your raise on the flop is debatable at best. Even if your read is reliable, are you confident you can move her off of her hand? A lot of people will just call down with AK here, not to mention the fact that she's got lots of outs to pair up. On the turn, you really have to bet your hand here if you still put her on overcards - now she's got 9 outs to beat you (3 As, 3 Ks, 3 Qs to counterfit your 2 pair) and you have to charge her to draw (or hopefully fold). Your river check is the only street I agree with.

I don't mean to be harsh, btw. I remember the first time I played in a casino - I made $250 at a $4-$8 game in like 5 hours, and I though I was king of the world. I think back on that night now, though, I realize that I was just a total luckbox. I'd do things like limp in MP with K5o, hit 2 pair on the flop, and think "this game's too easy!".

[/ QUOTE ]


The Goober,

I do realize that I got lucky and know that it was a trash hand. In my opinion, my only mistake was probably not betting on the turn.

I see that a reraise on the flop was good because it made it seem like i hitted the flop. By her calling, i felt she didn't have a piece of the flop. I had no balls to bet the turn and checked all the way...

But still, thanks for your insight. I would have never thought about it the way you did, which is very rational and a good way to play it too...

thanks,

YoungOne

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I do realize that I got lucky and know that it was a trash hand. In my opinion, my only mistake was probably not betting on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to belabor this point, because you may have misspoken, but these two sentences contradict each other. Playing 32o, virtually any time except a freeroll from the big blind, is a mistake. You've simply got to not let yourself tilt to the point of playing a hand like this, or you won't become a long-term winning player.

[YoungOne]

"But since you got lucky, you got the chance to look back at it like you played it well."

"Pre-flop, that's about as easy a fold as humanly possible. Your flop raise was also just chip-spewing. The rest of the hand is inconsequential." by eh923

eh923,

great point, i won therefore i believe i played well. Just reading through all the responses has totally convinced me that I should never play 2 3 o again in that position.

I'm not the best writer of poker, but i left out alot of reads and situations. At the time of the hand, I was on a winners tilt. I felt i couldn't lose, thus the irrationality of my play. I got lucky that she only had A K o and i hit my 2 on the turn.

Awesome feedback guys, (This post might be dead, but i learned a whole mess from you guys.)

YoungOne

[TheMetetron]

Jesus Christ..

this post may be dead and everyone else has beaten on the point, but please god don't play this crap anything like the way you did ever again in your entire life. You couldn't have played this worse if you had tried.

Pre-flop: FOLD! You are given a second chance to FOLD to the raise and don't take it.

Flop: FOLD! It's a recurring theme around here.

Turn: BET that son of a bitch!

River: Perfectly played... lol


I wouldn't have posted again and tried to beat this point home, but I really don't think you are getting it. Read some more and study, your game is pretty bad and there is no way you are a winning player. Sorry to burst your bubble, but from your manner of speech, it's pretty obvious.

Don't take this as me being mean, but you really do suck at poker right now. Study and learn.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]

great point, i won therefore i believe i played well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your basic concepts in the earlier posts in this thread made sense. You played tight, and tried to put yourself in the best situations possible, and your cards held up. However, I know you've heard enough (I hope) that your 32o play was about as bad as it gets. Your statement that I quoted, however, is just as important. Not to say this is you, because it doesn't appear to be, but that's the classic "fish" line of thinking. In order to become the long-term winner you want to be, you need to be able to be honest with yourself about how you played, for better or worse, regardless of specific hand results. You look like you're on a decent start though, so keep studying and working, you'll get there.

[TommyO]

You may have plugged some leaks but there's no way you're going walk away from every session a winner. Some nights your going to get decent cards and win a little bit of money. There will also be times when you get great cards and lose a TON of money because your hands are always second best. As a previous poster said, the only way to know for sure is to track every single session you play over dozens of sessions.