fundemental short handed concept I'm missing

[mister]

picture a 6 handed 3/6 stars game. Game is weak, but will typically have 1 decent LAG, 1 decent TAG, and some fish.

You (or I) correctly raise UTG with a hand like QJs
All fold to the button who correctly raises his hand (unknown to us) to get it heads up with us.

Let's say that this guy would make this play with anything from 77 (or even lower maybe) to AA, and all the decent big connectors and Aces. So he could have AK just as often as 77 here.

When the flop comes KQx, giving us middle pair, what is your line UTG ?

I looked at this today trying to figure out 3-4 possible ways to tackle the hand.

1) Bet, he raises (correctly), I ?

I can see myself calling, then checking and calling to the river if the board stays more or less the same

I can see myself 3 betting that flop in the hopes of maybe getting a feel for his hand

I can't imagine I'd ever fold.

2) check raise the flop

How many of you do this ? If you check raise and he 3 bets, do you fold ?

3) check call to the river. Is this giving him too many cheap cards ? Is our hand strong enough that we'd want to be protecting it ?

4) check call the flop, check raise the turn on a card that doesn't appear to change the hand. Anyone do this ?

I'm guessing that what makes a good player good is the ability to mix up the lines here to confuse other players. i'd just like to know if any of the lines I suggested weren't even worth doing (and if so, why). thanks a bunch,

M

[DMBFan23]

I like to check call the flop here... c/r opens us up to a 3 bet and that's just spewing with second pair versus a pf three bet. plus I'd rather make more when ahead which I can do by having him bet the turn as well.

if he often checks behind the turn (who really does that tho) then I consider a turn donkbet, but probably still check call as I'm not really worried about many free cards if ahead...

it seems passive I know but so many times he will hang himself with a much worse hand that will fold to your aggression. when you hit the flop harder then you can start to think about making the most from his second best hand

[mister]

That just seems like we're always going to

1) pay him off to the river with no sense of what he has
2) maybe miss value bets when we have him beat

although I could see it saving us bets when he does have us beat ! argh, I feel so raped check calling

[spydog]

I check-call this the entire way unless I improve. I'm not folding anywhere and I'm not going to give him the opportunity to punish me if he has me beat.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel so raped check calling

[/ QUOTE ]

These forums will beat aggression into your head (which is good most of the time). However, playing passively in the right situations is vastly underrated here, IMO.

[joker122]

i check raise the flop alot here to get an idea of his hand.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
c/r opens us up to a 3 bet and that's just spewing with second pair versus a pf three bet. plus

[/ QUOTE ]

but you have an easy checkfold on the turn IU - that's the advantage.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
That just seems like we're always going to

1) pay him off to the river with no sense of what he has
2) maybe miss value bets when we have him beat

although I could see it saving us bets when he does have us beat ! argh, I feel so raped check calling

[/ QUOTE ]

What % of the time are we ahead here? If it's more than 55% you can put in a raise somewhere but if it's less you just want to get this to showdown based on the size of the pot pf. In your example you are only sweating one more overcard and have very little reason try to protect. If I'm raising anywhere in this hans it's because I think I'm ahead a large % of the time or because I think a better hand will fold enough to make a raise profitable. I fold if I think I'm behind a high enough % that calling down is not worth it. This sitaution seems like a good time to check/ call it down to me unless we improve.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
i check raise the flop alot here to get an idea of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need to get an idea of his hand? Can't you just play this passively and get a perfect picture of his hand when you show this down? You can't possibly fold this and playing back at him will make him fold a worse hand or give him a license to punish you with a strong one.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
i check raise the flop alot here to get an idea of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? You should already have an idea of his hand from his PF action.

IMO, as a general rule, any play you make with a decent made hand HU, in order "to find out where you stand" is wrong.

This hand is no different than any other "way ahead, way behind" hand. And a c/r is clearly wrong in these spots

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]

but you have an easy checkfold on the turn IU - that's the advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding 2nd pair HU should not be in anybody's arsenal, except under unusual circumstances (which this isn't).

[mister]

Ya that makes sense spydog. I guess I've never been a fan of the pure math in limit. But really second pair means showing down, and the cheaper the better.

With regards to what % of the time we have him beat, I think that's impossible to say. The range of hands a player would 3 bet there is just so vast.

Now how do the dynamics change with a draw out there ? a flush draw he could be on...

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
why? You should already have an idea of his hand from his PF action.


[/ QUOTE ]

i know that he has 77-AA, AK-AT, or KQ. if you call that an idea then i guess so, but i'd like more than that.

[mister]

"why? You should already have an idea of his hand from his PF action."

I disagree. I've played against a ton of very good players that would 3 bet with 66 here to get heads up with me. And if I don't cap (which with QJs I never do), he now can feast on me with a flop he likes. I'd say I'm good more then half the time with my Q here, that 3 bet to isolate against me doesn't put him in the AQ-AK, TT-AA range

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

but you have an easy checkfold on the turn IU - that's the advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding 2nd pair HU should not be in anybody's arsenal, except under unusual circumstances (which this isn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

what? this forum has gotten so ridiculous.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

With regards to what % of the time we have him beat, I think that's impossible to say. The range of hands a player would 3 bet there is just so vast.

[/ QUOTE ]

not really. AA-77, AK-ATs, AKo AQo, KQ-KJs.

Also, not to nitpick, and maybe it was just a figure of speech, but in case you dont know. In your original post, you mention that its just as likely for him to have AK as it is 77. It's in fact much more likely he has AK as it is 77. There are 16 ways to be dealt an AK, and only 6 to make 77.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say I'm good more then half the time with my Q here, that 3 bet to isolate against me doesn't put him in the AQ-AK, TT-AA range

[/ QUOTE ]

so then check/call it down. (looks like you have an idea of where you stand from his PF 3 bet to me). A c/r here is an awful play

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

but you have an easy checkfold on the turn IU - that's the advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding 2nd pair HU should not be in anybody's arsenal, except under unusual circumstances (which this isn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

what? this forum has gotten so ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably should have worded that differently. Basically, in order for me to make a comfortable fold on this hand I will need to play back at villian to a certain degree. However, by playing back at villian I will be investing close to the same amount of bets (or more depending on villian) as just check-calling the entire way. Check-calling means I never fold the best hand. Plus, it gives me the best opportunity to improve if I am behind. If you are folding this on the turn, you lose out on those chances when you might spike a J or Q on the river.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why? You should already have an idea of his hand from his PF action.


[/ QUOTE ]

i know that he has 77-AA, AK-AT, or KQ. if you call that an idea then i guess so, but i'd like more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[mister]

I'll put in differently, you're right, I worded that wrong. It's more likely for him not to K big kicker, then it is for him to have it. More often then not I'm not getting 3 bet by a big K here (although the bigger K or bigger Q obviously still makes us lose)

We lose to

AA, AK, AQ, KQ, KK, QQ, KJs

we beat

66 (and lower), 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, AJs, AJ, ATs, AT

so it's obviously really close

[mister]

I missed AKs, AQs, and a few others

but you get the idea, it's close

[mister]

So you would check call this 100% of the time ?

Does that not make us predictable ? I've seen excellent players check raise with draws, or much less then that middle pair, just to keep you guessing. I don't know that this is wrong (hence the forum). I just always found the play to be strong. But maybe it's just for flash...

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]


but you get the idea, it's close

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it wasn't. I just said making a play to find out what he has after the flop, is a mistake.

[mister]

So it becomes a mistake purely because of his 3 bet ? I mean if he just calls (instead of 3 betting), with a hand like KT, is it still a mistake to bet my Q on that flop ?

If so it seems like I should be raising way more often preflop just to provoke this rash of free cards I could potentially get if I was in his position.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[mister]

that's what I was asking Joker. What range of hands will he have when he reraises our check raise ?

Especially since I'm check raising my big hands on the flop about 75% of the time. He's going to have to respect that play from me.

[joker122]

AA-QQ, AK, KQ and usually AQ. remember, this is a TAG.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good

[mister]

[ QUOTE ]
AA-QQ, AK, KQ and usually AQ. remember, this is a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, so I'd be confortable folding to that range.

I guess people are saying check call so we can either win or suckout or lose cheaply. I see some merit to that. But I think I could never robotically always do that.

[mister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good

[/ QUOTE ]


Ya but now you're not allowing for all the times he draws out on us.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good

[/ QUOTE ]


Ya but now you're not allowing for all the times he draws out on us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since he doesnt have many outs if hes behind (4 at most, most likely less), You arent very concerned about this. You want him putting his bets in the pot with that kinda draw.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the spot of the villian, I'm generally never 3-betting the checkraise. I'm definitely letting my opponent hang themselves if I have top pair and waiting till at least the turn and often the river. So you're raising to find out where you're at is just going to make you put in more bets.

[joker122]

most don't play as well as you, and i'm not just saying this because i'm on the other side of the argument. most will 3bet the flop or raise the turn with top pair or better and sometimes AQ.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the spot of the villian, I'm generally never 3-betting the checkraise. I'm definitely letting my opponent hang themselves if I have top pair and waiting till at least the turn and often the river. So you're raising to find out where you're at is just going to make you put in more bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

excellent point that I forgot to mention. I think its HEFAP that talks about how accurate is the information you are trying to get by raising

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
most don't play as well as you, and i'm not just saying this because i'm on the other side of the argument. most will 3bet the flop or raise the turn with top pair or better and sometimes AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think most TAGs are as predictable as this against other TAGs, I have definitely experienced lots of trickery against them (just calling to the river with strong hands and also 3-betting hands like 77 on the flop with the intention of making you fold a better but no great hand in this scary situation.)

By raising with the intention of easily folding against unpredictable opponents, you're setting yourself up to lose lots of chips.

[spamuell]

Also another reason I'm extremely reluctant to narrow TAG hand rages down in HU situations based on the number of bets they're willing to go is because the ones who aren't tricky against other TAGs are frequently the ones who are pretty clueless against TAGs and just win by betting their good hands against bad players. So they're the ones who are most likely to misplay their hands.

So I'd say if you do this, you frequently either get tricked into folding too much and putting too many bets in or you end up doing it just because your opponent misplays and misrepresents their hand.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check raise the flop alot here to get an idea of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? You should already have an idea of his hand from his PF action.

IMO, as a general rule, any play you make with a decent made hand HU, in order "to find out where you stand" is wrong.

This hand is no different than any other "way ahead, way behind" hand. And a c/r is clearly wrong in these spots

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not agree that c/r is clearly wrong for one reason: this situation is so common that I think you have to mix it up. Sure, I wouldn't c/r as a default, but doing this occasionally is not a bad idea, imo, particularly if the opponent is thinking, as OP suggested in the hypothetical.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check raise the flop alot here to get an idea of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? You should already have an idea of his hand from his PF action.

IMO, as a general rule, any play you make with a decent made hand HU, in order "to find out where you stand" is wrong.

This hand is no different than any other "way ahead, way behind" hand. And a c/r is clearly wrong in these spots

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not agree that c/r is clearly wrong for one reason: this situation is so common that I think you have to mix it up. Sure, I wouldn't c/r as a default, but doing this occasionally is not a bad idea, imo, particularly if the opponent is thinking, as OP suggested in the hypothetical.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I wanna mix it up, I'll do it with a better hand, then there is the possibility my opponent calls me down with lots of hands I can beat. Here, that isnt going to be the case. The times I do this, are more than enough to mask the times I'm c/r with a draw or with A7

[joker122]

you make good points but my main point is i think you're way behind here most of the time, and i think check-calling all 3 streets when this is the case seems wrong.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
you make good points but my main point is i think you're way behind here most of the time, and i think check-calling all 3 streets when this is the case seems wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

so then just check/fold

[sam h]

Assuming the turn and river are low blanks, I will check-call the first two streets and then usually bet the river.

[mister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you make good points but my main point is i think you're way behind here most of the time, and i think check-calling all 3 streets when this is the case seems wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

so then just check/fold

[/ QUOTE ]

no i think he means we're missing bets when we're ahead.

Ok now the other side of the coin. We've got 77, we're the TAG. UTG checks, we ?

[droolie]

If I'm checked to HU I bet/fold the flop with 77. If I get called on the flop I mix up my turn. Sometimes I bet. Sometimes I check and call a river bet. If I checked the turn through and the river is checked to me I value bet.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the turn and river are low blanks, I will check-call the first two streets and then usually bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]



ding, ding, ding...... we have a winner.



Adam

[DMBFan23]

easy bet, the UTG raiser could have a very wide range of hands that didnt hit the flop enough that we need to bet the flop

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
easy bet, the UTG raiser could have a very wide range of hands that didnt hit the flop enough that we need to bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What? This makes no sense whatsoever. Your opponent is betting the flop here 98% of the time, regardless of whether he hit. Why would you donkbet him?

[DMBFan23]

sorry that was in response to

[ QUOTE ]
Ok now the other side of the coin. We've got 77, we're the TAG. UTG checks, we ?

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: in the first reply of the thread I was (and am) digging the c/call as UTG.

[spamuell]

Oh right, yeah, easy bet against all but the most unusual opponents.

[Derek in NYC]

I dont understand why the c/r on the flop is so bad. Against a more passive player, if he three bets you, its much easier to get away from the hand unless you improve or pick up a draw. (Against a thinking, or aggressive player, the flop c/r doesnt help nearly as much I agree.)

[DMBFan23]

you're the pf three bettor and you hold 88. I check raise you on a KQx flop and then lead the turn. what do you do?

what do you do if I just check call the flop?

[wheelz]

The flop c/r allows worse hands to get off cheap, or play you off a better hand. Better hands don't have to 3-bet the flop either, they can just call then raise you later. Then you'll still be putting in at least 2 BB, and you won't even get a showdown.

[mister]

[ QUOTE ]
you're the pf three bettor and you hold 88. I check raise you on a KQx flop and then lead the turn. what do you do?

what do you do if I just check call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]


I'd say 90% of the time I'm folding to your turn bet

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good

[/ QUOTE ]

You post gooooooooooooood. People should listen to this.

[wheelz]

Yeah, where's Alobar is right? I thought that post summed it up, but people are still arguing.

[mister]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, where's Alobar is right? I thought that post summed it up, but people are still arguing.

[/ QUOTE ]

for the record I'm not arguing since I don't know enough to claim to be right. I'm just willing to take as many opinions as possible before formulating my plan for this weekend.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting a better idea, is only going to lose you money when you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean save you money when you have the worst hand?

if he 3bets our checkraise, why can't we check-fold the turn IU?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it saves money when you have the worst hand, but it costs you money when you have the best hand (he folds, when he would put more bets in the pot). You are also folding a hand on the turn that could also have up to 5 outs. So not only does it cost you money on your winners, it costs you the pot all the times you would have drawn out on the river. Also there will be times you fold the winner when he 3 bets you with 77 ont he flop (it might be rare, but it will still happen). When you factor all that together it WAAAAAAAY outweighs the 1BB you save by c/r to find out if your hand isnt any good

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar is right.

Surf

[StellarWind]

1. Alobar is right.

2. The checkraise and fold the turn unimproved after a 3-bet line is extra bad with QJ. Folding the turn at 7-1 with five probable outs saves very little even if you are sure you are behind. If you must try this play (why?) save it for a hard-to-improve hand like TT.

3. The idea of checkraising to vary your play is sound but that does not mean you should vary your play with QJ. The time to run the bluff checkraise is with a hand like JT or a flush draw. Now when he makes a smart TAG fold with 88 you've really done something. If he's really weak so that you want to bluff a lot you can add hands like 77, AJ, and AT to the mix. But there is a backwards gap principle here. Don't be bluffing hands unless they are considerably worse than the best hand you expect him to fold.

4. Similarly you can play back with very good hands because you expect lots of merely good hands to make the mistake of calling you down. The thing to avoid is giving extra action with mediocre hands. He'll just exploit you by folding trash and eventually raising the good stuff.

[Petro]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Alobar is right.

2. The checkraise and fold the turn unimproved after a 3-bet line is extra bad with QJ. Folding the turn at 7-1 with five probable outs saves very little even if you are sure you are behind. If you must try this play (why?) save it for a hard-to-improve hand like TT.

3. The idea of checkraising to vary your play is sound but that does not mean you should vary your play with QJ. The time to run the bluff checkraise is with a hand like JT or a flush draw. Now when he makes a smart TAG fold with 88 you've really done something. If he's really weak so that you want to bluff a lot you can add hands like 77, AJ, and AT to the mix. But there is a backwards gap principle here. Don't be bluffing hands unless they are considerably worse than the best hand you expect him to fold.

4. Similarly you can play back with very good hands because you expect lots of merely good hands to make the mistake of calling you down. The thing to avoid is giving extra action with mediocre hands. He'll just exploit you by folding trash and eventually raising the good stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Thanks. Most enlightening post I've read in a while.