10-20 at Caesar's IN was loose as a goose this evening.

[steamboatin]

I have only played 10-20 a few times but I have never seen it like it was tonight. People calling two or three cold with any two suited, playing any connected cards suited or not. Drawing(and hitting) runner runner straights and flushes.

I was cruising along up about $100 and someone turned on the vacum, because the suckouts kicked into hyperdrive, I was down about $400 in like fifeteen minutes. I came back a little but they called me to the main game and it was almost as crazy as the must move table.

Anyway, I ended up just a few chips above the felt so I decided to go eat and think things over. I rarely ever reload when I am stuck but this game was way to good to leave so I bought another $200 worth of chips. I made it back from the edge and left up $83.

I hope this doesn't come of as a brag post because I shoud never have let those goobers get that far ahead of me but big draws need to be pushed when you have eight ot nine callers.

[Tom1975]

Sounds like I should have made the drive... Instead I opted for $1 beer night at the Grand Vic. I got there around 7:00 and they only had two table open, both 5/10. I was third on the list but still had to wait almost an hour for a seat. By midnight it was down to one table. The game wasn't even that good, seems like all the fish have swam south to Belterra.

[PocketJokers72]

[ QUOTE ]
I ended up just a few chips above the felt so I decided to go eat and think things over. I rarely ever reload when I am stuck but this game was way to good to leave so I bought another $200 worth of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely play limit, but I'm trying to learn more about it.

What is the prevailing wisdom in a game such as this as far as stack size? Wouldn't you want to buy in deep to mitigate the swingy-ness and put yourself in a position to get fully paid if you go to the felt?

It just seems like reloading for 10 BB + "a few over the felt" seems like a recipe for losing 10 BB + "a few over the felt".

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I ended up just a few chips above the felt so I decided to go eat and think things over. I rarely ever reload when I am stuck but this game was way to good to leave so I bought another $200 worth of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely play limit, but I'm trying to learn more about it.

What is the prevailing wisdom in a game such as this as far as stack size? Wouldn't you want to buy in deep to mitigate the swingy-ness and put yourself in a position to get fully paid if you go to the felt?

It just seems like reloading for 10 BB + "a few over the felt" seems like a recipe for losing 10 BB + "a few over the felt".

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinking exactly the same thing.

You should never let your stack get below 12BB. I find buying for 10-20 BB causes me to focus too closely on results.

[winchips]

as i think you mentioned, you never want to be at the table and have a monster hand and not get paid for it. Its a little different then NL. You can always just call to the river, but if oyu got something good you want to make sure you are able to raise and reraise and have enough money to do it.

[MicroBob]

I (and others) have said pretty much the same thing to Steamboatin but this is a part of his game he doesn't seem interested in adjusting to.


I believe that when he plays (be it 4/8 or 10/20) he will buy-in fairly short and if he loses his buy-in he will typically call it quits for the day. He will NOT buy-in for more.
I suspect this leads to many situations where he is sitting there with just 3BB's or so (but I don't know this).

Steamboatin - If you are even playing just ONE hand with less than 10BB's at the table (much less 3-5 BB's or so) then you are severely hurting your EV.

We had a player at the 10/20 game I played on Tuesday who kept buying-in for just $100 at a time. Another guy just kept sitting there with 2 or 3 BB's and was all-in on several hands in a row (when he played).

It just isn't a very good idea to be doing this in a limit game.
If you hit your set or straight or something you CAN'T get paid off any more by the other players if you are already all-in.
If you DON'T hit a hand then you likely would not have had odds to stay in the pot anyway (thus getting to see the 1 or 2 extra cards 'for free' is not as helpful).


I know I've harped on this 'buying-in short' thing before but obviously I'm not the only one who thinks this is a habit you would be best advised to break.

[bugstud]

I just want you to buyin for like 75BBs once to see how it feels

[MicroBob]

I want him to pull an 'Evan' and buy in to the 4/8 game for $1k or more in white chips and just sit there with his huge pyramids of chips.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
I want him to pull an 'Evan' and buy in to the 4/8 game for $1k or more in white chips and just sit there with his huge pyramids of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

or a "magoo" and @ 2/4 buyin for about 4k like themeteron did

[Victor]

was at caesars a few monthes ago and the 10-20 was the most nitty rockish game ive ever seen. the players still sucked but there was zero action.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
was at caesars a few monthes ago and the 10-20 was the most nitty rockish game ive ever seen. the players still sucked but there was zero action.


[/ QUOTE ]

The 10/20 will have its nittish spells, but they seldom last long. On weekends it is almost without exception a fantastic game, and where I log all of my B&M time.

[steamboatin]

I'm not feeling any love.

I added 20 BB to my existing stack to bring it up over the minimum required.

[steamboatin]

Friday afternoon, it was nit city, but when I came back after an nice long dinner break, they started a must move game and it just like 3-6 but with bigger numbers.

I am reading Middle Limit Holdem by Bob Ciafonne and the 10-20 at Caesar's IN has no resemblance to the 10-20 games described in Middle Limit Holdem, except for when it is Nit City but the Nits still draw to runner runner straights and flushes.

I still have a lot of work to do on my game.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

The 8/16 at Canterbury plays this way sometimes as well. I generally buy in for three racks (37.5BB), and top off if I get to one rack or less. I leave if the game gets bad, or if I am down so much that it is affecting my play. I've got no problem reloading if the game is good.

[steamboatin]

I was down 46 big bets for yesterday and although I was playing decent poker, I know I would have blown another buyin if I had continued to play.

They had me cussing and talking to myself so it was definetely time to go.

[GreywolfNYC]

"I was cruising along up about $100 and someone turned on the vacum, because the suckouts kicked into hyperdrive, I was down about $400 in like fifeteen minutes. I came back a little but they called me to the main game and it was almost as crazy as the must move table.

Anyway, I ended up just a few chips above the felt so I decided to go eat and think things over. I rarely ever reload when I am stuck but this game was way to good to leave so I bought another $200 worth of chips. I made it back from the edge and left up $83."

I have to disagree with you here. If you're in the process of moving up in limits, and talking a shot at a bigger game than you normally play, this is precisely the type of game you should avoid. If your bankroll is a little short you are putting yourself under too much pressure with these game conditions. You would be far better off selecting a more passive table where your swings, both up and down, are not going to be so dramatic.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
I was down 46 big bets for yesterday and although I was playing decent poker, I know I would have blown another buyin if I had continued to play.

They had me cussing and talking to myself so it was definetely time to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good choice.

I had a similar day at CP on Thursday. The 8/16 was very good, and I dropped 50BB. Had an hour before it was time to go, so I hopped onto a 4/8 Omaha table and squeaked out a small win there. Still went home muttering.

[poker327]

[ QUOTE ]
I am reading Middle Limit Holdem by Bob Ciafonne and the 10-20 at Caesar's IN has no resemblance to the 10-20 games described in Middle Limit Holdem, except for when it is Nit City but the Nits still draw to runner runner straights and flushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small Stakes Hold'Em by Ed Miller applies to that game more than Middle Limit Hold'Em.

[steamboatin]

If I can't beat the goobers that draw with only two outs, you do you suggest I play against?

I never play poker with money that I can not afford to lose. I am not "Playing Above My Head". The only question I have is if I am "Playing Above My Game".

Loose games do have huge swings but the also provide huge opportunity. Dropping $920 hurts my pride but it doesn't change what I have for dinner or if I take the MRS to a movie.

[MicroBob]

sorry to offend in my previous posts on short buy-in's, etc.


I haven't read Ciaffone yet (keep meaning to get to that) but I suspect the previous poster is correct that SSHE is more applicable to this game.
I ran into a couple of reasonably tight-ag players at the Horseshoe 10/20 last week...but for the most part I found that it played more like an Ed Miller SSHE table then the Party 3/6 tables do.


If you are routinely getting 5-7 players to the flop then it is mostly going to play like an SSHE type table.
Why exactly this seems to be the case for the Louisville and tunica 10/20 (and even the 20/40 from what I've heard) games is not exactly certain to me.

Perhaps the Vegas 10/20 games just have enough rock-nits to keep it more in Ciaffone-territory.
but I think that with the current TV-boom and popularity, etc that even the Vegas 10/20 games are more SSHE-ish then they were even a few years ago when Ciaffone wrote his book.


Anything that was written PRE-WPT has to be 'adjusted for inflation' to a certain extent.
If they say, "consider a typical live 10/20 game" you have to remember the fact that a 'typical live 10/20 game' 3-5 years ago was not the same thing way way back then.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
If I can't beat the goobers that draw with only two outs, you do you suggest I play against?

I never play poker with money that I can not afford to lose. I am not "Playing Above My Head". The only question I have is if I am "Playing Above My Game".

Loose games do have huge swings but the also provide huge opportunity. Dropping $920 hurts my pride but it doesn't change what I have for dinner or if I take the MRS to a movie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, then ignore my suggestion. When you move up in limits and play with a bunch of drooling chimps you are looking at some big variance, at least potentially. My suggestion was meant to be helpful, but I seem to have angered you. FWIW, I have played lots and lots of very wild 10-20 and 15-30 games and I've been a big winner often and also experienced some vicious downswings. If you can take the heat then more power to you.

[MicroBob]

He didn't seem angry in the least if you ask me.

[steamboatin]

I didn't intend to sound angry. I might be a little sensitive because I really hate to lose.

I still have some of those feelings of entitlement that I need to work through. Kinda like, I study poker hard, I shouldn't lose to a runner runner straight etc. The hardest thing in poker for me is to recognize the things I need to work on most.

I don't want either of you to think I don't respect your opinions because Grey wolf and Microbob have always given me good advice.

[Bigdaddydvo]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read Ciaffone yet (keep meaning to get to that) but I suspect the previous poster is correct that SSHE is more applicable to this game.
I ran into a couple of reasonably tight-ag players at the Horseshoe 10/20 last week...but for the most part I found that it played more like an Ed Miller SSHE table then the Party 3/6 tables do.


If you are routinely getting 5-7 players to the flop then it is mostly going to play like an SSHE type table.
Why exactly this seems to be the case for the Louisville and tunica 10/20 (and even the 20/40 from what I've heard) games is not exactly certain to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO. Mastering SSHE has been my foundation for success at the Caesar's 10/20. In skimming the Ciaffione book, he doesn't seem to address the large numbers of weak players that will gravitate to a 10/20 type game. Maybe we're just lucky in the midwest and the rest of the country's 10/20 games are much tougher, but I suspect not. It isn't a knock on Ciaffione, it's just that his target audience is probably the same as the one who played in the Golden Nugget 10/20 game of 25 years ago described by Bobby Baldwin in the Limit Hold Em section of the original Super System.

MB, you're right even about 20/40 around here. I don't have the roll to play it, but I've watched it from the rail a few times, and also played with many of the 20/40 regulars at 10/20 when they couldn't get a 20/40 game started. They are much more loose and passive than you'd expect them to be. Most will not think twice before reaching for chips to call an EP raise w/ATo.

Steamboat, I hope one of these days we're actually able to play at the same table so I can give you some good feedback on your game (and you can do the same for me).

[steamboatin]

I would really like that.

[MicroBob]

I've had guys come 'down' to my 10/20 game at the Horseshoe with tales of 6 or 7-way capped pre-flop at the 20/40, etc etc. Playing with 'the rock'. Live-straddles...or capped live-straddle amongst the first 2 or 3 players or whatever.

A couple of the dealers there who I respect confirmed this.


I played in the GS 1/2 NL game with one crazy drunk who tries to 'gus-hansen' everybody with insane bluffs with 73o, etc. He was showing his side of the table his cards if he wasn't in the hand.
I have since seen him sometimes over at the HS 20/40 game and he has the same drunken-laugh and manner about him and I suspect he is going just as crazy on that table.
Lots of hoots and hollers from over there.

Just the guys that get called over to the 20/40 from my 10/20 game are enough for me to ALMOST say, "Screw it. If this moron is headin to the 20/40 game I KNOW it's a good game."
But I don't have the bankroll to be comfortable with the fluctuation of that game yet.
I can barely tolerate the 10/20 swings...and I'll probably change my mind on that if I have a major down-swing there.
I hate to be so results-oriented when I'm playing...hence the reason I don't play so high online.
Just play my best and hope for the best and be sufficiently covered to not have to worry about it TOO much in-between.


When I made my brief run at party 15/30 I saw plenty of VP-80 type players who would drop $2k or so and then leave. So I know this isn't THAT uncommon for such a limit....but it still is somewhat incredulous to me.

The money that some of the mid-high limit fish seem to lose on a regular basis is just weird.



Poker is still somewhat new in Louisville I think....and is drawing from a decently wide area.
Tunica is drawing from an even larger area.
Sometimes I feel like I'm one of the only 'locals' at the table.
We had one player who had driven 10 hours from Charlotte, NC to play a couple days of poker at the Horseshoe. I guess I kind of take for granted what I have in (pracitcally) my own back-yard. I have met several other Carolinans at the tables in Tunica before at 3/6, 4/8 and 10/20.

[GreywolfNYC]

Yeah, I hear you. It sucks losing to donkeys. I never fear the best player at the table but I've been hurt plenty by the worst. And I am always hearing from people hear who talk about how "juicy" a game was and when I ask, "how did you do?", the anwser is "well, I dropped two racks (or, "I dumped a grand") but the game was great!" It makes me stop and think to say the least.
In one of Mason M's essays he talked about preferring to be in a game that was a little less aggressive where he would be winning smaller pots than to be in one of these chip-spewing contests (my words, not his). Most of the time I'd tend to agree with him. When you're in a game where 6 or 7 are in for three bets before most flops you are going to have to make a lot more tough decisions then you would in a more "normal" game. And, of course, you are going to have to play a very different game than you normally do. I've been in a lot of wild, aggressive games (more so in A.C. than in Vegas for some reason) and they are stressful. But don't let a losing session in one of these games get you down. It comes with the territory and you might have a run of them before you start cracking them. When you do the payoff will be a big one. Good luck!

[siccjay]

I played 5/10 there once and the game was loose as .50/1 on Party used to be.

I dropped 200 in about 2 hours after some bad beats. Last hands a set of Queens lost to 64o (turned gutshot)

If I could move that game to my living room I would never work again. It was GREAT.