A play I've been making lately

[brettbrettr]

And its been working, but I'm wondering how everyone feels about it.

Here's the play. I'm in LP with a low-mid PP (I've gone as low as 55, but that was special). There's a maniac raise, and loose passive call. I 3 bet. I get out if there's action, if there's a likely to help my opponents type flop, whatever. I guess this would be pretty standard with a hand like 99, but I've been going lower. Thoughts?

In this one, MP2 is said lag, and I was trying to get rid of the field. Its not exactly the above scenario, but the idea remains. No dice.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

[Dudd]

It would have to be a crazy LAG preflop, but someone willing to slow down postflop and maybe even find a fold every once in a while. If he's raising with KQ and will keep pushing postflop regardless of the cards, then I don't like it as you're just setting yourself up to make difficult decisions postflop. But, if he's the kind of LAG who'll maybe lead the flop, call your raise on a safe flop, check call the turn and then let you check behind the river, I don't mind it.

[Grease]

I remember reading earlier today about overuse of the isolation play PF with small PP's. It's a good play to use sparingly, but I would shy away from using it constantly, because others will catch on to what you're doing and could take the initiative away from you.

I like it in this case, don't get me wrong. (Assuming true LAGGY properties)

[thirddan]

it was regarding shants 33 on teh button after one limper hand...its from an essay in feeney's book "inside the poker mind"...

[brettbrettr]

Thing is, you're calling here right? You're in position, it looks like its going to be a 4-way pot....

Given that, isn't possibly making a slight -ev play (*if* indeed that's what I'm doing) worth buying the button and possibly taking the lead? (I'd say maybe even a free card but after 3 betting pre-flop I don't think I'm checking any flop that's checked to me.)

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
it was regarding shants 33 on teh button after one limper hand...its from an essay in feeney's book "inside the poker mind"...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a different situation, IMO.

[thirddan]

it will lead to similar decisions especially if used at the wrong times, such as when the limpers or blinds decide to play for 3bets still or when the PFR caps...while now the pot is much bigger and you will be getting more value for your set (but not enough for it to be a pure value raise) you also may get to take a free card if the opportunity arises...

the problem with doing this with a small pocket pair is that you will almost never know if your hand is good or not, which puts you in a situation to be paying off when you are not good, but not extracting the max when you are good or folding the best hand...

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

the problem with doing this with a small pocket pair is that you will almost never know if your hand is good or not, which puts you in a situation to be paying off when you are not good, but not extracting the max when you are good or folding the best hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Noted.

[ihardlyknowher]

In position, I like this play. Even if you are against 4 overcards, you still have a significant edge, and I think it will be easy to tell when you are beat.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I was trying to get rid of the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that most people are wired to call any number of bets cold once they have open limped.

[Grease]

I know, I have read the book multiple times. I realize this situation is slightly different, but it still could be overused in certain situations.

I do like it here though.

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was trying to get rid of the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that most people are wired to call any number of bets cold once they have open limped.

[/ QUOTE ]


My feeling is that you are not going to be isolating when there are limpers ahead of you. This play might isolate the raiser 35% of the time. Mabye less. Sticking 3 SB's in preflop with 66 seems spewey - even with your read.

Why not just call, get a big multiway pot, hit your six, then collect his post flop spewing.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was trying to get rid of the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that most people are wired to call any number of bets cold once they have open limped.

[/ QUOTE ]


My feeling is that you are not going to be isolating when there are limpers ahead of you. This play might isolate the raiser 35% of the time. Mabye less. Sticking 3 SB's in preflop with 66 seems spewey - even with your read.

Why not just call, get a big multiway pot, hit your six, then collect his post flop spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's where I'm at with it as well.

[thejameser]

i like it. it is opponent specific, obviously, but i had a very similar hand with 88 last night. this is a higher pp than 66, but the same range. it can be very profitable if played properly. maybe i should post it.....

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just call, get a big multiway pot, hit your six, then collect his post flop spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, but as I said in another reply to this thread, there's value in having the lead. What you're ignoring above is the times when our hand win's u/i. IMO, its much easier to gauge when we're best by having the lead.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was trying to get rid of the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that most people are wired to call any number of bets cold once they have open limped.

[/ QUOTE ]


My feeling is that you are not going to be isolating when there are limpers ahead of you. This play might isolate the raiser 35% of the time. Mabye less. Sticking 3 SB's in preflop with 66 seems spewey - even with your read.

Why not just call, get a big multiway pot, hit your six, then collect his post flop spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's where I'm at with it as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, but even apart from the iso play I still think there's value in the hand. If you're not folding, then 3-betting costs very little--maybe a fraction of a bet---and rewards you with the lead, the button, and, if you so choose, possibly a free turn card.

(I said earlier I'd *never* take a free card but after some thought I figure maybe a flop of TJQs would be a good time to do it.)

[Fat Nicky]

I'm not a fan of this play because for it to work, a big parlay of events need to happen, 2 big ones are

-the limpers need to fold pre-flop a good portion of the time
-you need to win the hand unimproved a percentage of the time

The second reason is directly correlated to the first in that, if the limpers don't fold, your chances of winning the hand unimproved go way down. Since I don't see too often limpers folding when it's 2 bets back to them pre-flop, I don't see this play being a winner in the long run.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't want to eliminate the field with a speculative hand that has big pot potential in a pot that is quickly growing large. I'm content to cold-call and hopefully induce others behind me to cold-call as well.

[jskills]

3 betting 66 in this situation seems pretty risky to me.

I hate playing LAGs sometimes - makes me do things that I wouldn't normally do.