Sklansky on Razz - and it's effect on my Triple Draw game

[Luv2DriveTT]

Lets just say that it has been fantastic for my triple draw game. His rationalizations on WHY we raise or do not raise preflop in a lowball game are fantastic.

So what that said..

Hero has 2345x preflop. What does hero do (bet, check, raise, or fold) and why?

1) Hero on button, 2 limpers

2) Hero on Button, 1 limper

3) Hero on Button, no limpers

4) Hero in SB, 2 limpers

5) Hero in SB, Open raised from UTG with 1 cold caller

6) Hero in SB, first to act

7) Hero in BB, UTG open-raised

8) Hero in BB, 3 limpers

9) Hero in BB, SB completes (heads up)

10) Hero UTG

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[MarkGritter]

Where have you been reading this? I'd be curious to see what he has to say (particularly as I play Razz at GG occasionally.)

[Ezcheeze]

My answer for all of them is to raise. I'm curious to see any reason at all for not raising in any of these spots.

[Luv2DriveTT]

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Where have you been reading this? I'd be curious to see what he has to say (particularly as I play Razz at GG occasionally.)

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Sklansky on Poker includes Sklansky on Razz. Get it at Amazon.com

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[Luv2DriveTT]

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My answer for all of them is to raise. I'm curious to see any reason at all for not raising in any of these spots.

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Your answer would incorrect. There are more profitable ways to play some of these positions in the long run. Think about it... flesh out the answers.

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[timprov]

2345 is generally a hand that likes small pots slightly more than big ones. I'm not sure how many of these situations that applies to though. I do hope nobody's folding it in any of these spots.

1-3 are ridiculously easy value raises.

4 is an interesting spot. I can see that there might be some benefit to keeping the pot small, but I still think giving up the value of a raise here is too much.

5 you might call for deception. I'd rather three-bet and see if I get capped.

6 is an obvious raise. If you're not raising 2345 headsup you've got a serious problem.

7 is probably a call. Deception plus limiting the pot size.

8 again, limiting the size of the pot might be advantageous, but with three players in it's hard to pass up the value raise.

9 see 6.

10 raise this puppy up. It's not strong enough to slowplay, or to limp-reraise.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Good answers Timprov... now WHY are you raising or calling (glad you aren't folding /images/graemlins/smile.gif )? For value? For deception? To protect your hand?

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[randomstumbl]

I'm curious what the rational is to 2345 "liking small pots."

I can kind of understand not raising for deception. Though, i think deception is a dubious concept when people know you're a reasonable player and you're drawing one.

This hand is usually stealing a card or two from your opponents that they need to make a smooth hand and it has 8 cards to draw at 3 times to make a stellar hand (and 4 more for a somewhat likely winner). I'm assuming this is 2-7 TDL, I understand 2345 is a lot weaker in A-5.

In all of these situations, you're probably ahead now and you'll probably make a hand with a lot of showdown value. What concept am I missing that makes you NOT want to get money in the pot? This just seems like logic that leads to not raising AKs in hold'em because it's a drawing hand.

[timprov]

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Good answers Timprov... now WHY are you raising or calling (glad you aren't folding /images/graemlins/smile.gif )? For value? For deception? To protect your hand?


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Yes, most of the time, though deception's a lot harder to get in TD than holdem. Plus folding equity, metagame reasons, manipulating the pot size, and occasionally just plain annoying my opponents. Why limit yourself to one? I try to make every bet serve at least two purposes, though I'm not particularly good at that in TD yet.

Value is pretty clear and overriding on everything but 7 and 10, plus folding equity on 3,6, and 9. 10 is a combination of value and protection, plus I like to raise just about anything I can justify UTG for metagame reasons. (That's just for me though.) 7 you probably have value unless UTG is supertight, but if you do you're a card ahead and you'd like to keep the pot small to maintain that advantage, especially since you don't have a great draw. Also you can probably get villain to draw rougher by calling.

[timprov]

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I'm curious what the rational is to 2345 "liking small pots."

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It's a pretty tiny effect for 2345 -- note that most of my answers involved raising/reraising for value anyway.

Mostly it's that you'd like not to have people trying too hard to catch up when you've caught a 9 or sometimes a T. With small pots you can get a lot of bad folds in these situations, while people are more likely to chase hands that might or might not be drawing dead in larger pots.

This is not such a big deal in position (in fact I suspect it's a good idea to pound the pot with 2345 in position and hold back OOP), and the effect is not so great for 2345 as for something like 3456, whose value is largely in its folding equity.

My poker game is largely focused on forcing bad folds, though. Someone who plays a game more suited to getting bad calls may want to raise this all the time.

[randomstumbl]

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With small pots, you can get many bad folds in these situations, while people are more likely to chase hands that might or might not be drawing dead in larger pots.

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Okay, that makes sense. I definitely get most of my value from opponents that are overly tenacious. So, I only consider limiting the pot size with hands weak enough that I'm not sure I'm ahead to begin with. My style definitely has developed to destroy weaker/looser players, which has probably caused it to develop in a way that's exploitable by more conservative/tighter players.

2345 still seems way too good to rely on folding equity. On the other hand, you probably have to limit the size of the pot with good hands some percent of the time. Otherwise, you're screaming "rough draw" every time you don't raise a one-card draw. So, it seems like limiting the pot size is a more valuable concept against "better", more conservative players.

Back to the OP... I could see myself not always raising the UTG raiser for a couple reasons.

I'll pick up folding equity from the UTG raiser while also encouraging the BB into the pot. These seem like mutually exclusive concepts, but I think you're in an either or situation. Either the BB comes along for the ride and you're playing a big pot or you have some pretty good folding equity in a small pot. Also, with my table image, I think it'd be confusing for a while when I call on the button and draw one.

[canis582]

Calling predraw with a monster utg is an interesting concept. If someone calls predraw, they almost always call after the first draw, giving you one extra BB from the person who would have folded to a raise. If people limp to you in LP, they will almost always call the raise. You can tell someone is a good, or at least cautious player if they fold to the extra bet.

Last night I had a monster after the first draw in EP and decided to check raise then stand pat. That probobly cost me some bets when everyone folded the next round.

[MarkGritter]

So, here's how I look at the issue.

When we raise before the first drawp ("preflop"), we are often trading some equity on later rounds for equity now.

Raising gets more money into the pot. If we have an equity edge and are likely to maintain it, then the more money the better. But, if our equity will decrease in later streets, we might be better keeping the pot small.

But, raising also drives out opponents who have some equity, or at least cuts down their odds. Any opponent who folds (correctly or incorrectly) sacrifices some portion of the pot. Sometimes we are sacrificing bets we would pick up on later streets to win the pot now.

So, what sort of hand is 2345x? We are 40% likely to complete with #1 or #5, so we are probably at least a 30% favorite to win the pot, and probably more with position. But, our equity rapidly decreases as we miss, or out of position. (We may not be able to stand pat with a T or 9 OOP, but with position those are very strong holdings.) After one draw our chance of a hand is only 30% and only 15% on the last draw.

In constrast, a hand like 8642 does not change as much in value. We have a 60% chance of making an 876 or better, but the chances of winning a showdown are less. Our chances of making a hand are 45% on the 2nd draw and 27% on the last draw. (Note that 27 is 45% of 60, while 15 is only 37% of 40.)

(Heads-up, 8642 on the button vs 5432 is around a 54/46 favorite on the 2nd and 3rd draws if both are still drawing one, but a slight dog on the 1st draw. My numbers might be suspect, though, this was a quick spreadsheet hack.)

So, 5432x almost certainly has an equity edge vs. two players. Against a lot of hands it has an equity edge HU as well, but this edge decreases on later streets if we miss, espeically OOP. This suggests we want to win the pot soon, or else have a big multiway pot.

So, can I actually apply those ideas correctly? Probably not.

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Hero has 2345x preflop. What does hero do (bet, check, raise, or fold) and why?

1) Hero on button, 2 limpers


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Raise for value, we have an equity edge. We don't mind the blinds coming along for the ride. But, we shouldn't give BB a free card here.

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2) Hero on Button, 1 limper


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Raise, we want to get the hand heads-up with position. We may also have an equity edge vs. a limper. We don't mind horribly if one of the blinds comes along or three-bets.

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3) Hero on Button, no limpers


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Raise, try to steal the blinds. Folding equity more than makes up for any danger of getting 3-bet by one of the blinds.

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4) Hero in SB, 2 limpers


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Raise for value and to avoid giving the BB a free card.

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5) Hero in SB, Open raised from UTG with 1 cold caller


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Call. Our advantage is decreased by being OOP. Also, we would love it if BB came along and increased the pot size, since we have a definite edge (on both the first + second draws) versus four players.

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6) Hero in SB, first to act


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Raise. Although our equity edge may not be great against hands that call or reraise us, we want to win this hand now.

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7) Hero in BB, UTG open-raised


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Call. We might not have an edge here, HU OOP. Keep the pot small, see how the action develops.

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8) Hero in BB, 3 limpers


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Raise, we have a huge equity advantage in a 4-way pot even OOP.

Checking might disguise our hand somewhat and let us set up a check-raise on a later street. But more likely we will just shut down the action when we draw 1 anyway.

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9) Hero in BB, SB completes (heads up)


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Raise, we have position and SB has shown weakness! Muahahaha! (Unless SB is really clever and the limp is out of character, but even then we're still in good shape.)

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10) Hero UTG


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I would raise here. There is some danger of getting HU OOP against a good hand for 3 bets. But in a loose/passive game you are most likely going to end up in the middle, probably with a decent advantage.

I'd be willing to listen to arguments in favor of limping, though.

[MarkGritter]

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4 is an interesting spot. I can see that there might be some benefit to keeping the pot small, but I still think giving up the value of a raise here is too much.


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I don't think you'll be able to pick up this pot vs. 3 other players. Even if you keep the pot small there are probably 8 or 8.5 SB in it after the second draw, and the chances are high that least one player will call (probably correctly) getting 5:1.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Mark - you just made this thread one of the best so far on TD 2-7 in this forum. You rule. My comments tomorrow.

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[bobman0330]

Yeah, this post is outstanding.

Thanks for taking the time.

[Ezcheeze]

[ QUOTE ]


5) Hero in SB, Open raised from UTG with 1 cold caller




Call. Our advantage is decreased by being OOP. Also, we would love it if BB came along and increased the pot size, since we have a definite edge (on both the first + second draws) versus four players.


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This is not necessarily correct. What you want the big blind to do is call if hes incorrect to do so and fold if hes correct to call or raise, etc. After you call the big blind is getting 7 to 1 on his call so hes hard pressed to be making a mistake by calling with what would appear in most circumstances to be trash hands.

So basically if hes extremely loose to begin with but will fold most of his terrible hands here to another raise then just call (if there were no other factors). If hes a more reasonable player then raising is much better. IMO, because he is being laid 7 to 1 on his call if you call, AND your hand is very likely to be a favorite over the other two players, raising would almost always be correct. I believe similar concepts to these above apply in most circumstances where you are not the big blind. The big blind is usually getting great odds on his call so it's important to not allow him to correctly call.

The only situations the OP listed that could reasonably be a call are those where you are the big blind. In this case the only reason you are calling is for deception so it can only be right if it's going to cause your opponents to make a mistake later on. While I can imagine this happening, specifically in draw games it isn't very effective since as soon as you draw 1 your opponents will know you have an 8 draw or better. So the only real benefit I see you getting is that some observant players will give you extra bets later in the hand when they make a bad seven since they think it's likely you can only make an 8. Probably still not enough benefit to overtake the benefit of getting more money in with a money favorite, but still worth considering. It would at least be something you'd do once in a while to throw off your opponents.