Why do we fall down?

[Alobar]

So I'm a huge slide and have lost all confidence in my ability to play the game and its gotten so bad Im wondering if I'm even a winner anymore. Don't worry I'm not going to post any whiney bad beats or anything. But I've dropped down and am trying to figure my game out. So if I post a bunch of hands that just seem stupid and obvious, please forgive me. Anyway, here are a few....

hand 1:
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds


hand 2:
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP folds.

Turn: (4.20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB


hand 3: SB seems decent

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.


hand 4:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 4 BB

[sthief09]

1. tough spot. probably ok fold
2. I play it the same
3. hmm I don't fold that. I hope he has K8 or somethign. I mean how many people really play trips that fast? there are a lot of river cards I don't overcall on though
4. you have no kicker so I don't bet the river. I might bet it if I had a kicker.

[etizzle]

I like a raise in hand one, with folding coming in second.

The rest are fine.

edit: hmm i didn't notice the preflop action in hand 3. A lot closer than i thought originally.

[SomethingClever]

Take these with a grain of salt as I suck at poker.

Hand 1: I raise.

Hand 2: I bet/fold the turn, and take a free showdown if possible.

Hand 3: Hmm. I think I just call the flop... maybe raise the turn or river.

Hand 4: I bet/fold the turn and take a free showdown here too.

[etizzle]

cant bet fold the turn with the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[helpmeout]

1. weak
2. bet the turn you have enough outs here and might be ahead.
3. i normally fold to the cap
4. fine, you dont beat much

[clownshoes]

Hand 1: Really tough but I agree with the fold. You might be in the lead now but your hand is pretty weak and there are ton of turn cards you really dont want to see.

Hand 2: I like

Hand 3: This ones tough, I dont give him credit for a 9 but he would definitely play TT-AA this way. The BB is also along for the ride which sucks. I think this is an ok fold.

Hand 4: I do the same

[sthief09]

for hand 2, I like a check because there aren't that many worse hands he'll call 2 more bets with, but he can induce a bluff on the river. he also dodges a checkraise

[ISF]

Hand 1: The pot is pretty big here I cant see folding.
The rest look fine.

[SparkyDog]

It's because of all his outs that checking the turn is better in hand 2

[aflaba]

1. I would fold as well.


2. I'd bet the turn against a fish. Plenty of opponents will pay you of with a worse hand. Even if you get c/r you have tons of outs to imrpove.

Against a TAG:ish I'd do the same you did.


3. I'd fold the turn if I played it the same way you did on the flop. But I would CC the raise on the flop to represent a 9, and also give room for 2 re-raises so I could get more information on my opponents.

If it got capped I'd fold.
If it got 3-bet I think I'd fold the turn unimproved.
If no more raises went in I'd raise the turn for a free showdown, folding to a 3-bet.


4. I like it.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope he has K8 or somethign.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sam h]

I play all the same except #2, where I bet the turn. When you have enough outs, the "bet when you can fold, check when you have outs" rationale no longer makes sense.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope he has K8 or somethign.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

YEAH I TAKE THAT BACK ONLY IDIOTS PLAY K8 /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Surfbullet]

hand1 I raise - while our hand has only 2 reasonable outs to improve it is often best now and our reverse implied odds aren't as bad as say, 74 on a 567 board. If the pot were unraised I'd like a fold better, but with 9sb already in I raise.

hand2 I bet the turn.

hand3 I would play the same, but upon further reflection I think folding to the cap is better - if it were on a 778 board then I would call b/c both our A and our 8 outs do something for us, while on this board big aces stay ahead if an ace turns, and our 8 makes us the sucker full house.

hand4 i like.

Surf

[krishanleong]

1. Why are you playing the hand if you aren't going to play it when you hit tp. I raise this. I know the reverse implied odds suck and its a hella drawy board. But you've been given a gift and have the chance to face the field with 2 when you have a good chance of having the best hand. Raise.

2. Looks good.

3. Looks fine. I'm not sure if SB has a 9 or an overpair but either way your toast.

4. I bet the turn. People peel with a paired board all the time.

Krishan

[imported_azalin]

Hand 1: I fold preflop. I definitely raise the flop.

Hand 2: I either play it that way or i bet the turn depending what player the BB is. Most of the time i play it the same though.

Hand 3: I dont three-bet the flop but i call the cap (i think i have 3 outs minimum or better most of the time). I dont three bet the flop cause any 10+ card barring an A would put me in awkward position. I postpone that decision till the turn.

Hand 4: I dont three bet the SB usually preflop (this hand is HU so its mostly read depended) but i sure take the free showdown (my strategy in general to this kind of HU -and in those small pots in general- is usually not to bet with only A-high after the flop.

Disclaimer: I have only 20k or so hands in 5/10.

[Trix]

I like betting better than checking in hand two, as I think the extra valuebet you are going to make when you improve will make up for the times you get CRed. I´m not sure it´s a spot where people bluff a ton either, so I dont want to give a freebie to a random gutshot, low pair or XhXx.

[cockandbull]

Hand 1, i raise the flop, pots a reasonable size and you have a good chance of being ahead. It also probably folds out overs from MP, giving you position.

Hand 2, i really like your line here. I'd check the turn, you have a ton of outs and most people i've played with at 5/10 will see the turn check as weakness and bluff the river.

Hand 3, in order of possible choices i'd fold/call/raise.

hand 4, i'd bet this turn heads up. Most likely your ahead, plus you can take a few showdown if you dont improve.

[fyodor]

Hand 1 - this is Party 5/10 - If the SB is anywhere near typical he could have 2nd pair, 3rd pair, a Jack with a worse kicker (maybe even J2), a draw or an overcard. No way I fold this. I raise.

And contrary to any lame Batman dialoge we do not fall down so we can pick ourselves back up; we pick ourselves up because we fell down; we fell down because we tripped or something.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - this is Party 5/10 - If the SB is anywhere near typical he could have 2nd pair, 3rd pair, a Jack with a worse kicker (maybe even J2), a draw or an overcard. No way I fold this. I raise.

And contrary to any lame Batman dialoge we do not fall down so we can pick ourselves back up; we pick ourselves up because we fell down; we fell down because we tripped or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

pffft, dont hate on me for trying to inspire myself with cheesy batman dialog /images/graemlins/smile.gif

For all the people that think I should fold hand 1. Does it not matter to you that the original PF raiser is still yet to act in the hand? Sure I've got TP, but ive got an ass kicker, on the worst possible board, 2 flush cards, its right in the realm of 2 pair combinations, and its also a straight board. Even IF I have the best hand at the moment, implied odds are about as awful as they get here. Any diamond Q,7,K or A kills me most likely. thats like close to half the deck. Not to mention I could already be drawing basically dead. And if I am behind to the PFR, best case scenerario ive prolly only got 2 outs.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
For all the people that think I should fold hand 1. Does it not matter to you that the original PF raiser is still yet to act in the hand? Sure I've got TP, but ive got an ass kicker, on the worst possible board, 2 flush cards, its right in the realm of 2 pair combinations, and its also a straight board. Even IF I have the best hand at the moment, implied odds are about as awful as they get here. Any diamond Q,7,K or A kills me most likely. thats like close to half the deck. Not to mention I could already be drawing basically dead. And if I am behind to the PFR, best case scenerario ive prolly only got 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a good fold. If you were going to continue, I think calling rather than raising is clearly better, as it lets you see what develops behind you and then, if the PFR is quiet, lets you raise the turn if a safe card falls. But folding is best.

[maxpowers21]

I'm suprsied to see how many people decided to check the turn on hand 2 instead of bet.

He might have a 3 or 6 and you could very well be missing a value bet, he has done nothing but check/call, how can you assume he has top pair or better?

Even if you are behind you have tons of pot equity currently with your heart outs + 2pair/trip outs,(at least 25%ish when behind) that you have to be behind here much more often then ahead to even consider a turn check

I think this is an easy value bet.

[maxpowers21]

P.S. i like the fold in hand 1,

Reverse Implied odds+ chances you're behind = -EV, if you play this hand.

[imported_azalin]

Yes there are a ton of OUTS against you but lets see first if the UTG raiser calls two cold...If he does the i slow down and attempt to take a free card on a bad turn but the thing is that the chances your hand will be good in showdown with 2 other players still in the hand are slim so if i dont improve in the turn then i probably am out of here. If on the other hand the UTG raiser does not call then i think we are a favorite in this hand. When our hand holds then we get paid at least one BB more. If we hit an ugly turn then we can see the river free also (meaning that we loose less). I also remind you that i dont call the UTG raise coming from a decent player with J7s cause if i hit a J then its hard to let go and the fact that i dont have position means i pay 1 BB more when he catches. I definitely dont call with J7s if its not heads up and i am in the sandwitch position.

[Guy McSucker]

Hand 1. I think this is a clear Ed-Miller-style flop raise. Your hand is too good and the pot too large to just give up now, and with two players behind, raising is the right move to increase your chances of winning. Easy peasy raise IMO.

Hand 2. I was thinking I would bet the turn but thought better of it. I think you played this very well.

Hand 3. The weaky in me wants to fold on the flop after the bet and raise. I certainly want to fold when it's capped.

Hand 4. I think I bet the turn and take a free showdown here. There's a really good chance my hand is best and/or that he'll fold a better one.

Guy.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

For all the people that think I should fold hand 1. Does it not matter to you that the original PF raiser is still yet to act in the hand? Sure I've got TP, but ive got an ass kicker, on the worst possible board, 2 flush cards, its right in the realm of 2 pair combinations, and its also a straight board. Even IF I have the best hand at the moment, implied odds are about as awful as they get here. Any diamond Q,7,K or A kills me most likely. thats like close to half the deck. Not to mention I could already be drawing basically dead. And if I am behind to the PFR, best case scenerario ive prolly only got 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the kinda thoughts that a someone who is a winning player but has gone on a monsnter downswing has. It's weaktight. Not because I think it is but because the entire board thinks it is. It's times like this were you need to understand that your feel is off a bit and you need to readjust.

Krishan

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
for hand 2, I like a check because there aren't that many worse hands he'll call 2 more bets with

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the turn check, but there are plenty of hands he'll call two more bets with. any 3,6,heart,pocket pair or worse queen is calling down the whole way in 5/10. I routinely see people peeling on the flop with undercards like QJo in spots like this.

--turnipmonster

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
These are the kinda thoughts that a someone who is a winning player but has gone on a monsnter downswing has. It's weaktight. Not because I think it is but because the entire board thinks it is. It's times like this were you need to understand that your feel is off a bit and you need to readjust.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree strongly. When I read this hand, what I thought was "nice, Alobar still has it even after suffering this devastating downswing."

The pot is sizeable but not huge by any means. I ran some sims on this. If either the SB has a jack or the PFR has a pair or better jack, you are in horrible shape.

If neither of these is the case, you are still only in great shape if both a T and a 7 improve your hand. If neither improve your hand, you hardly have more than your share of equity.

Now obviously the game is not played hot and cold. But still, raising here is clearly the worst of all options. At the least, you want to see what develops behind you and what falls on the turn, then be able to raise the SB if the PFR just calls and then a safe card falls and you are more likely in a situation where you have substantial pot equity.

[rory]

Hello Alobar,

Hand #1: Preflop call is no good.. unless you like being dominated and paying off like a chump. Limpers and callers like hands with Js and Ts in them and there's a limper and a caller. The flop fold is a good one I think. Would have been better a street earlier, though.

Hand #2: A large percentage of the time your opponent will be scared and not bet a hand like a smaller pair on the river, so his bet means you are probably beat. Your hand has to be good only 20% of the time, though so calling is right for sure. I would have bet the turn-- you have a pair and a flush draw, so getting raised is not really a big deal since you have so many outs. Your hand is probably good anyway, your opponent hasn't done anything to make you think that a Q is no good here. Keep on pounding the pots on the turn, especially if you have outs. You don't want to get guys thinking they can call the flop because you will puss out on the turn and they will get to see the river for 1 SB against you. I think the non-downswing Alobar would have bet this turn. Bet it.

Hand #3: I'm not folding the flop either. The turn fold is pretty bad. You are getting 12:1 here on a call on the turn, closing the action. Your opponent has represented an overpair, against which you probably have 5 clean outs. There is also a small chance your opponent is pushing a hand like 77 or something which you are beating, though I doubt it. I think this is an easy turn call and I would also call the river too for the size of the pot, as long as it was one bet to me.

Hand #4: I play it the same way. Once he called me on the flop I would be like "wtf does this guy have that I beat". I'd probably fold if he bet the river too.

[me454555]

I've been on a downswing lately so maybe this will be a good learning experience for the both of us

Hand 1

I fold this pf but since you didn't, I raise the flop. You've got TP and sb could easily have a draw or some other hand worse than yours. I'd like to get it heads up against him

Hand 2

I think you've gotta bet the turn. You prolly have the best hand here and if you don't you've got a monster draw. I think very important to bet the turn for in game considerations. It would be very consistant w/flopping tptk and an observeant opponent would notice it. I also think you'll get calls here from a lower heart.

Hand 3

I wish I could say that I bail when its 2 back to me but I prolly play it just like you did in the heat of the moment. Looking back, I think folding the flop is prolly the way to go when you have to call 2 cold

Hand 4

My standard play here is to bet the turn and take a free showdown UI

[rory]

Everyone:

Folding the flop is very very bad. SB could have a very wide range of hands here, and is betting a non-scary flop because he 3-bet preflop. How does it make sense for Alobar to think he is beat based on the flop action? SB is betting out on a non-scary flop because he 3-bet preflop. BB raises because he has a pocket pair or a bad 8 that he thinks is good. Now Alobar should fold? That makes no sense-- he is probably winning!. Alobar 3-bets because, rightly so, he thinks his pair of 8s has a good chance of being the best hand and he wants to knock the most-likely-just-overcard-holding SB out. But now the SB caps.. Oh no. That seems like a big pair but now we have odds to draw to hitting trips or two pair with the ace that will probably be good. Same deal on the turn. River I'd call just in case because the pot will be very large at that point.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone:

Folding the flop is very very bad. SB could have a very wide range of hands here, and is betting a non-scary flop because he 3-bet preflop. How does it make sense for Alobar to think he is beat based on the flop action? SB is betting out on a non-scary flop because he 3-bet preflop. BB raises because he has a pocket pair or a bad 8 that he thinks is good. Now Alobar should fold? That makes no sense-- he is probably winning!. Alobar 3-bets because, rightly so, he thinks his pair of 8s has a good chance of being the best hand and he wants to knock the most-likely-just-overcard-holding SB out. But now the SB caps.. Oh no. That seems like a big pair but now we have odds to draw to hitting trips or two pair with the ace that will probably be good. Same deal on the turn. River I'd call just in case because the pot will be very large at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this analysis. I folded the turn without taking the pot odds into consideration because I knew I was behind the SB, not thinking about how my A outs were still likely clean, and I had at the worst prolly a chop if an 8 fell.

Ive got a question on the J7s hand for you Rory, what kind of odds do you need before you play a hand like this? I figured getting 7-1 with a suited connector (albeit very weak connecting) is good enough for the call, especially since I can get away from flops that might hit my hand, but end up costing me (like here for isntance)

[Mig]

You have to at least make a move by raising and have the field face 2 cold. IF they call / or 3 bet you are done with the hand but you have to know where you stand. You have TP so try to steal that pot... no ?

[rory]

7-1 isn't good enough for me to call with any two suited, especially out of position-- I usually want about 10-1. J7 isn't really a connector. If you make a straight with it you can very easily get drilled by a higher straight, especially with the PFR and the cold-call out of the blind. Make it 97s or 68s or something and you have a call. But I'm a tight guy in the blind so what do I know.