Bet the turn? Fold the river?

[durron597]

Is my flop checkraise enough to drive out a straight draw? $10+$1. I thought the river bet might be an attempt to grab the pot with a busted draw - I think my problem with this hand was that I couldn't decide if he had a hand like A7 or a draw.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t2825)
Hero (t1680)
SB (t2765)
BB (t1315)
UTG (t3660)
MP (t1255)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Hero calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t130</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, SB folds, BB calls t270.

Turn: (t920) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t920) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t400</font>, Hero calls t400.

Final Pot: t1720

[astarck]

Personally, I'd let this one go preflop.

I had the impression you overplayed your pair of 7s with 9 kicker the entire hand. With 2 overcards out there and you only holding a pair of 7s, I also fold to the river bet.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'd let this one go preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't Party. Folding preflop is silly.

[ QUOTE ]

I had the impression you overplayed your pair of 7s with 9 kicker the entire hand. With 2 overcards out there and you only holding a pair of 7s, I also fold to the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I probably should have folded to the river bet. But I think the turn is the most interesting part of the hand.

[astarck]

What are you looking to hit with this? 68Ts? I still fold this hand preflop. I was never one who liked the texture of 97s.

I agree the turn is most interesting. If I am going to continue betting this hand, I will do it on the turn as the king is a scare card.

[lastchance]

I think calling the river was pretty dumb when A and K show up. Sure, he could have a busted draw, but it isn't likely at all.

I suck at poker though, but I really shut down after my flop raise gets called.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling the river was pretty dumb when A and K show up. Sure, he could have a busted draw, but it isn't likely at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my problem with the hand is that I never decided whether he had a pair + good kicker or a draw. Calling the river was dumb I agree.

[ QUOTE ]

I suck at poker though, but I really shut down after my flop raise gets called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really the turn is the interesting part of the hand. You think I'm beat? No draw got there.

[microbet]

I don't think you necessarily fold pre-flop, but I don't think it is silly.

He led out with a little more than pot with 2 people to act. I think a draw usually wants to either check, bet a token amount as a block, or really overbets. I think he's betting for value and kicked it up a bit to scare off a possible draw.

I'd fold the flop since you don't have much, don't have much of a draw, and are quite vulnerable to overcards even if you are ahead.

On the turn: A call and then a check is pretty weak by villian, no? I think this is a chance to take the pot, but you basically have to put him allin to do it.

I dunno, like I said I would have played it diffently early. I know you get more chips than party, but I don't think you get enough so that you can make a move on a pot and then give up on it after you see a weak response.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn: A call and then a check is pretty weak by villian, no? I think this is a chance to take the pot, but you basically have to put him allin to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the raise was large enough that he can't call without something, and that maybe the check was a slowplay... that's why the river call was stupid, I don't know what I was thinking.

I think I have to decide on the turn whether to be done with the hand or put a big bet in right there.

[loose passive]

Fold preflop, fold on river.

[microbet]

Yeah, my first thought for the turn was 'decide whether to put any more money in the pot or not' leaning towards check/fold on the river, but what would he still be slowplaying? He was BB, so he could have 68. Maybe he plays trips this slowly.

So, you called, what did he have?

[lastchance]

Meh, he checked on the turn, but I get shown kings here all the time. Yeah, you're right. Move in on the turn...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you called, what did he have?

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He had 32o. Meh. I'm surprised he called the flop, maybe he thought he had implied odds. I just couldn't put him on a draw enough of the time to justify pushing the turn, but perhaps I was wrong in that estimation.

[Scuba Chuck]

Durron, one of the things that has given me a good grasp on my postflop play is to define my strategy preflop. This is a great example of how a preflop strategy can save you some chips. And I don't think playing this hand from the button on pokerstars is all that bad.

I'm sure we can assume some preflop strategies that we would all agree on, but let's discuss "when to change gears." Changing gears is an important concept. And I think changing gears here is a very good move.

Let's walk through this hand. First and foremost, you're the button. You've got great position to create havoc and buy pots. Flop comes, and you've got top pair. BB (who has not put a cent into this pot yet, other than his forced blind) bets more than the pot.

What hand do you put him on?

Moving on. Hero reraises to ~2x Pot after BB bet. With TP6K. Oh, and a backdoor flush draw. Not horrible. You've changed gears. What's your play from here? Is it defined? One thing to consider right now is the following. Am I willing to put anymore chips in this pot? Decide this before the turn. Perhaps the answer is yes, as long as a 3,6, or 8 doesn't fall. If that is the case, you should bet the turn if it's checked to you. Always be the aggressor. This is giving you one more opportunity to win the hand. If BB raises the turn, or calls the turn and bets the river, you're probably beat.

The river call is not a value call. Let it go, save your chips. YOUR HAND SUCKS here.

Scuba
who's trying to help, not be mean. By no means is my line the best line. In fact, I'm certain I'd fold to the BB flop bet. But, if you're going to continue, be sure you're putting your opponent on a hand. With that river bet, I'm thinking A7, K7, and maybe 75, 74, 54 (gulp) 68, 83??.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you necessarily fold pre-flop, but I don't think it is silly.

He led out with a little more than pot with 2 people to act. I think a draw usually wants to either check, bet a token amount as a block, or really overbets. I think he's betting for value and kicked it up a bit to scare off a possible draw.

I'd fold the flop since you don't have much, don't have much of a draw, and are quite vulnerable to overcards even if you are ahead.

On the turn: A call and then a check is pretty weak by villian, no? I think this is a chance to take the pot, but you basically have to put him allin to do it.

I dunno, like I said I would have played it diffently early. I know you get more chips than party, but I don't think you get enough so that you can make a move on a pot and then give up on it after you see a weak response.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the issue at hand. Playing to the river, and investing chips into this pot may be correct poker, BUT it is not correct in SNGs, and most likely not correct in many tournament games, unless we're very deep stacked.

If villain is a lag, which he is here, so be it. You'll get a chance to get his chips with a better hand. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache in the long run. Congrats, you caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. Great job. But I think this situation is more of a loser in the long run than a winner.

Scuba

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Moving on. Hero reraises to ~2x Pot after BB bet. With TP6K. Oh, and a backdoor flush draw. Not horrible. You've changed gears. What's your play from here? Is it defined? One thing to consider right now is the following. Am I willing to put anymore chips in this pot? Decide this before the turn. Perhaps the answer is yes, as long as a 3,6, or 8 doesn't fall. If that is the case, you should bet the turn if it's checked to you. Always be the aggressor. This is giving you one more opportunity to win the hand. If BB raises the turn, or calls the turn and bets the river, you're probably beat.

The river call is not a value call. Let it go, save your chips. YOUR HAND SUCKS here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 100% correct. Great post.

I knew I played this hand badly, I wouldn't have posted it otherwise.

You have made it clear, I have two options: fold flop, play flop as I did and push turn when checked to. I got myself in trouble by not making my decision and sticking with it.