What the hell am I doing wrong?

[nate_king1]

I have played many $11 tourny and I follow the 2+2's Beating PP $10+1 SNG article and I do it exactly. But lately I found that it is impossible to work! Because When I follow this I either go out in 3-5th place and always lose money. No first, only one second!
Sure my last game somebody cracked my aces but it is contiuous, and last game I got 4th!

I always hang on staying around average while blinds have increased to 100/200 +.

Can somebody who beats the PP 11 help me on what I'm doing wrong?

[TStokes]

Do not follow the guide exactly they are just guidelines. Loosen up around the bubble 4-5 people left and become more aggresive and steal blinds to build up your stack.

[nate_king1]

Okay then help me out with this situation Consider the following hands when you are 5 players in 11 SNG, have 1100 Stack blinds are 75/150.

Rasie/Call/Fold?

A2
A10
Q10
KK
77

This would really help me out if you can give me for what you would do with those hands.

[lastchance]

What position are you in? How many active players are there?

BTW, I'm pushing nearly all of them given decent conditions (folded to you on button). And I'm calling AT, KK, 77, not much else with, again, right conditions.

These conditions are
Not insanely loose calling ranges of the people right to you (pushes will be called by J7)
Not having a lot of players act in front of you (UTG, I fold QT and A2, for example, though it's somewhat close)

Note: 77, and AT are very good, and I would find it very hard to lay these hands down to extreme strength (all-in from UTG when I'm UTG+1)

Oh, and laying down KK is dumb.

[Freudian]

I think you are looking for something that will be hard for us to give you. A map to beating the SnGs.

Once you understand why you should do something, you will find the answer to similar situations by yourself.

As for the specific hands, it depends on your position, the size of the other stacks (the blinds in particular), if someone else has entered the pot, how loose/tight your opponents are etc.

There is no clear cut answer. Of course you want to play KK no matter what, and if you are first in you want to push 77, AT and perhaps QT/A2.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
Do not follow the guide exactly they are just guidelines. Loosen up around the bubble 4-5 people left and become more aggresive and steal blinds to build up your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many threads re: "bubble" play. do a search and read through them. Then apply it. This is not as easy to apply as it is to read about it. Every situation is different and you will learn to apply correctly through trial and error and posting your bubble hands for critique. There are many solid players on this forum that will help you. Here is a link Bouble Trouble Thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=257 2641&fpart=&PHPSESSID=) to my 1st & 2nd bubble thread ... look at the advice I received (read original post first) and then read other bubble posts to help understand how to apply in different situations. Good Luck

[bluewilde]

I'm surprised about how you guys emphasize the strength of these hands (AT, QT, A2). Like Nate, though, I'm very new, and I have the same issue with coming close to the money but bubbling out more often than I think I should (sometimes even if I have a decent size stack). I think I'm certainly picking the wrong spots to steal/move-in, but it sounds like I'm way too tight as well. How low can you go with these hands (say, from the button if it's folded to you): 89? J8? Qx? Kx? Ax? (Just lost w/ A4s to A7o) I keep finding myself at really tight tables (on the 5+1s oddly enough) where everyone seems to be doing what I'm doing and waiting for the money, getting blinded down, making a stand and start waiting again. Against these kinds of opponents, what hands am I pushing/folding (again, from late position when I have 10-15 BB). And, am I just avoiding the really loose players?

Looks like Dr. Jeckyl just posted a reply that covers it; nm.

[gildwulf]

The 10+1 guide is good on figuring out how to get to the bubble, but teaches you to play tight-weak on the bubble and ITM. I would definitely stick to the guidelines for lvls 1-4 but you really have to start opening up your game at blinds 75/150, usually when there are 5-6 people left. If you start being more aggressive in the SB and on the button (pushing hands like KT that Aleomagus' guide would never tell you to push) you will find yourself in a better position to place 1st more often.

Also, check out the bubble thread that someone posted above.

Good luck...

[Onaflag]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised about how you guys emphasize the strength of these hands (AT, QT, A2). Like Nate, though, I'm very new, and I have the same issue with coming close to the money but bubbling out more often than I think I should (sometimes even if I have a decent size stack). I think I'm certainly picking the wrong spots to steal/move-in, but it sounds like I'm way too tight as well. How low can you go with these hands (say, from the button if it's folded to you): 89? J8? Qx? Kx? Ax? (Just lost w/ A4s to A7o) I keep finding myself at really tight tables (on the 5+1s oddly enough) where everyone seems to be doing what I'm doing and waiting for the money, getting blinded down, making a stand and start waiting again. Against these kinds of opponents, what hands am I pushing/folding (again, from late position when I have 10-15 BB). And, am I just avoiding the really loose players?

Looks like Dr. Jeckyl just posted a reply that covers it; nm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may get lots of offers from fellow 2+2ers to sit at my tables, but I'll answer the "How low do you go?" question. 72o. That's how low you can go. Okay, maybe a bit exaggerated, but you mention playing at very tight tables.

I have been caught with my hand in the cookie jar more than once on the bubble pushing with absolute crap, but it is the exception, not the rule. When it feels right, you push. When does it feel right? UTG folds and you believe SB & BB to be tight enough to fold without a monster. Push. The cards often times do not matter in these situations. Push.

I'm no mathematician and I certainly do not have the thousands of SNGs behind me like some here do, but when the conditions are right and you push in this situation, you will pick up the blinds more often than not. And when you do get looked up, you still have two cards in your hand.

I think the mistake you're making is waiting for the right cards to make the push. Instead, you should be concentrating on the three other players and what they're doing. Many times, the cards are secondary.

Onaflag...........

[Freudian]

If you are playing the $5+1s it is quite possible that your opponents have a wider calling range than at higher limits. Then you can't push as wide a range of hands.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I'm pushing nearly all of them given decent conditions (folded to you on button). And I'm calling AT, KK, 77, not much else with, again, right conditions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. And I push A2 and a lot worse from the CO

[Blarg]

If you have 10 BB or over, you don't have to push your whole stack in, and can try min-raises. If you're on tight tables(?)(wow) at the 5+1's. then you can raise taking more into account than merely your hand value, especially if just doing min-raises or 3xBB raises. Your raising is then motivated by their cards and how they feel about them, not by your cards and how you feel about them.

Stealing is mandatory somewhere along the line in SNG's. If you don't do it with iffy hands, sooner or later you'll have to do it with total garbage.

[Python49]

If you're not sure what to do with nearly all of these hands once they've been folded to you and you're on the button or in the small blind then you haven't been reading enough at these forums about how to play the SnGs. You play tight early on and at this stage in the tourney you are looking to push with hands to steal blinds... playing tight is not what you want to do, you'll get blinded off and announce to the other players at the table "hey my big blind is up for grabs, whoever is first into the pot all in gets it!". You seriously dont know what to do with KK? All of these hands are pushable from the button or SB after all folds to you and about half of them are pusable anyway... KK, 77, A/10... those are the only ones i remember without rereading the post.

[nate_king1]

im getting pretty agrevated I was stealing blins and i had 10-7 and he had 9-6 well rasied me all in which is only a littlebit more so i called flop
7 9 10 9 X

I lost have my stack that i have been building up being aggressive! By some lucky punk! im losing my mind! I just got out in 5th When I raised all in A6 and bb called with 78 and won! Why can't hold up the best hand, or get lucky???


Please somebody help im losing my mind! I have no money left!!! I just lost with AA preflop all in today, God i feel like [censored]!

[wulfheir]

I'm in the same boat. You can read my previous posts about my dismal performance in these games. Like me, you are here to improve. Posts some hands, even if you think they are obvious, either you'll be told you are way off, or it will confirm you had a correct line.

I've stepped away from the table for a little while to finish reading HoH 1 & 2. When I come back to the table next week, I'll have a stronger foundation of the game, and a more adequate bank roll.

I've been told countless times that a trained monkey can beat the 11s. I've read countless threads about players turning their first $50 deposit into thousands. In order for their to be winners, there must be losers. There is good news and bad news. The bad news is we're the losers, the good news is that we can only get better, and unlike the majority of the fish out there, we are dedicated to improving.

Good luck

[lastchance]

Hey, remember, QT and A2 is miles better than T7. People will spite call if you get a bit too aggressive, so you've got to pick your spots. Remember, position, stack size (in terms of BB), and calling ranges to the right of you. Be careful. Build up your stack slowly over the course of L4-L6, and make sure your opponents aren't calling crap at you.

[cleinen]

I think you are dwelling on the results of a hand. The outcome of the hands doesn't dictate how well the hand was played. If your AA is called by a weaker hand this is very profitable for you in the long run. I suspect a small sample size and the fact that the beats are getting in your head and messing with your play.

[nate_king1]

UPDATE------
3rd at an $11 Finally got 5 handed at the buble, and I lost with KK to A8s yet again! But I still had 500 so i got really aggressive and was able to get 3rd. Last hand

1700
2500
4000

Raised in SmallBlind with J9s, all-in by chip leader A3o, i called and lost. Well even though it was almsot a coin-flip, i was just happy not to lose.

Todays loses $-23. I think i had enough losing AA and KK when it really counts!!(Bubble)

[bluewilde]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same boat. You can read my previous posts about my dismal performance in these games. Like me, you are here to improve. Posts some hands, even if you think they are obvious, either you'll be told you are way off, or it will confirm you had a correct line.

I've stepped away from the table for a little while to finish reading HoH 1 & 2. When I come back to the table next week, I'll have a stronger foundation of the game, and a more adequate bank roll.

I've been told countless times that a trained monkey can beat the 11s. I've read countless threads about players turning their first $50 deposit into thousands. In order for their to be winners, there must be losers. There is good news and bad news. The bad news is we're the losers, the good news is that we can only get better, and unlike the majority of the fish out there, we are dedicated to improving.

Good luck

[/ QUOTE ]

Word

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
the 2+2's Beating PP $10+1 SNG article

[/ QUOTE ]

Searched for, could not find. Could someone point me in the right direction. Also, are there any must-read threads or articles that you could recommend as far as general basics of good SNG play. I only play ring and MTT's right now, and want to expand my horizons. tyvm.

[cleinen]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=2545431 &Forum

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Can somebody who beats the PP 11 help me on what I'm doing wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're using the guide. Ditch it after you get your feet wet. It's far too tight.

[tminus]

ditto, put on the thinking cap...the game has just begun
really man its so much more fun than following the script

hey freudian, i know this is horrible but your avatar looks just like this:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/peppers.asp

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have played many $11 tourny and I follow the 2+2's Beating PP $10+1 SNG article and I do it exactly. But lately I found that it is impossible to work! Because When I follow this I either go out in 3-5th place and always lose money. No first, only one second!
Sure my last game somebody cracked my aces but it is contiuous, and last game I got 4th!

I always hang on staying around average while blinds have increased to 100/200 +.

Can somebody who beats the PP 11 help me on what I'm doing wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

My God man. If you were drowning, and the only person within hearing distance was a blind man, would you just yell "help!"?

If you're looking for a lifeline, you'll need to give significantly more details. Your post here is atrocious.

[bluewilde]

Right,

So I'm really making an effort to loosen up on the bubble; I push all sorts of marginal hands when I'm on the button, it's folded to me and the blinds have been yielding. I've found these guys quickly get frustrated with my antics and open up their standards (or I fell into unlcuky opposition). However, I managed to win a couple of dominated races. Does this really aggressive bubble play rely on your KQ hitting a K vs. AQ?

I'm starting to think I understand that it's about getting people to fold and not having a better hand (this what you guys are saying?), and knowing that between the chances they'll fold/chances you're ahead/chances you can come from behind (my morally outrageous suck-outs), pushing becomes significantly +EV. Is this the idea? I guess the main element you have to consider is if you think the opponent(s) will fold, based on past behavoir/current table feel. I don't know the relative strength of my cards to theirs, so the only way I pick my spot is the tightness/weakness/fear of the opposition. This is why I'm looking for spots where my cards don't matter? This is why I need to back off when they get cranky with my all-ins (Do I stop when I get...20BB..40BB)? Sorry to ramble...just that these ideas aren't really intuitive for me and I wanted to see if it was sounding sensical.

[wulfheir]

Here (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~sharnett/ICM/info.html) is a link describing one application of ICM, or independent chip model. It's the math behind what you just said, I think.