What do you do with SB that keeps raising your BB?

[octaveshift]

Party 33. Guy in the SB (midstack) is raising my BB to t450 every time it is folded to him. This is the 3rd orbit in a row he has done this. He should be pushing, but instead, he just keeps raising t450.

t450. t450. t450.

I am a firm believer in popping villains like this back to send a "back off" message, but he had me outchipped, and I was hesitant to tangle with him. At the same time, I am beginning to look like an easy target to the rest of the table, because he has been lifting my blinds without a fight.

My question is this: Should I *ever* fight back, and if so, how much of a hand should I look for before shoving it in his face?

OR - do I just let him steal, because I am doing the same thing to the players to my left?

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[lastchance]

Fight back with good hands. 3 straight times could mean he picked up AA, KQ, KT....

If he's going to let you go all-in to take his minraise, do it, just make sure to have some insurance by doing it with good hands.

[astarck]

If he continues to do it and you have enough chips to make him fold I push all in and pray to God he was stealing my blind that time. Often times not just the sb, but all others at the table, will respect you after that as you just cost the sb 450 chips to try to steal your blind.

[astarck]

Another thing I have started to notice is if you see this villain win a pot against another player make a point to type "nh" or whatever. At the low levels being nice seems to be in your favor. I've had many people fold to me because I wasn't talking trash to them and actually complemented them (if they deserved it or not). People generally like having others around them that are nice to them and like their plays.

[Blarg]

His auto-raising is giving you the opportunity to trap him later for most or all of his chips. It could be +EV to lose some chips now in order to double up later.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
At the low levels being nice seems to be in your favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is 100% true. +EV 2 tha extreme!

It's definitely a leak for me to get angry about someone raising my BB, because after all, I am doing the EXACT same thing, but it's frustrating to be on the receiving end of "the treatment."

Perhaps this is why spite calls are becoming commonplace? Perhaps it's a fundamental shift in the mind of the average SNGer? After all, it's a fairly new format- one would expect there to be strategic swings as new strategies are developed and countered.

If you think about it, "spite calling with any 2" is a fairly effective way to put an end to the "push with any 2" legions.

Not that it matters, but I did exactly what you suggested, and pushed and prayed. He had t2100 and I had t1750, and he instacalled with A2o. Pokar is confusing.

[astarck]

Isn't the assumption of doubling up later going on the fact that he will in fact call your all-in? And if you lose many more chips to him, doubling up won't do much good. Furthermore, you could be forced to go all-in with him with less than stellar cards at a time when he is obligated to call with odds.

Does anyone agree that after you see a pattern in his raises you push with any two before you get too shortstacked to have any hope of him folding?

[astarck]

He didn't have you covered by very much, and I'm VERY suprised he made that call. Especially after he saw you fold to him so many times prior, you'd think he would assuming you finally had a hand.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

Does anyone agree that after you see a pattern in his raises you push with any two before you get too shortstacked to have any hope of him folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the crux of the scenario, really. As he's lifting my blinds, I'm shrinking, and he's chumming the water.

I think that I NEED to stand up at some point. I want people to know that my blinds will not be stolen without a fight.

So do I push with a top 25% HU hand like QTs? Do I reraise, and then throw up when he pushes? Do I call and push any flop?

I know it's read dependent, but I'd love to develop some sort of guidelines to work from.

[Freudian]

Fold three times then say "I'll call next time, buddy!"

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't have you covered by very much, and I'm VERY suprised he made that call. Especially after he saw you fold to him so many times prior, you'd think he would assuming you finally had a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had 58o, so in the end, I looked like the moran.

I literally said "F*ck you" outloud and pushed. I was shcoked to see him call as well. Sadly, I seem to collect calls like this all the time.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold three times then say "I'll call next time, buddy!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah. I have tried this before. The old "I WILL CALL YOU WITH ANY TWO NEXT TIME!" trick always results in them raising me again, then me assuming "they must have KK!", so I end up folding anyway, and then I REALLY look like a puuusay.

[lastchance]

Everybody collects calls like these. That's why I fold a lot of what people would say are "easy pushes." People will make decisions based on emotions. If they think you're bluffing, they don't want you stealling, and they will call.

So, don't bluff. Valuebet. Make sure that your blind steals are not with crap, make sure that getting called is not the end of the world.

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
I literally said "F*ck you" outloud and pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see you didn't type it in the chat. Remember, they are good to you if you are nice to them. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
So, don't bluff. Valuebet. Make sure that your blind steals are not with crap, make sure that getting called is not the end of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the assumption of doubling up later going on the fact that he will in fact call your all-in? And if you lose many more chips to him, doubling up won't do much good. Furthermore, you could be forced to go all-in with him with less than stellar cards at a time when he is obligated to call with odds.

Does anyone agree that after you see a pattern in his raises you push with any two before you get too shortstacked to have any hope of him folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't treating it as an assumption at all, but a possibility.

The truth is, a guy raising you every time is going to be taking your chips most of the time unless you get a good run of cards, probably notably better than what he's raising you with even if he has decent raising hands. Unlike a ring game, you can't really afford to invest in many losing re-raises to keep him in line by going back to your pocket for more money.

As you note, though, you will be doing the same thing to others whether he was raising you or not. It's just that his constant raising of your blinds means that unless you get some really good cards, you'll probably have to do it to others a little more, in order to compensate for never getting to keep your blinds.

Re-raising him without the hands to do it with may not be the most +EV way to get those lost blinds back. Especially if you feel he is not a very skillful player and that if you choose your battles well, you could be ITM.

There are lots of ways this guy could get handled. His constant raising also means he's weakening his image, and getting into a lot of potential confrontations, too. Someone else could take him out before you get around to it. You could get a monster and trap him. You could get a good calling hand and just re-raise and make a nice little profit that one round; still good. There are ways you could profit off the guy or see the threat eliminated without having to just take him head-on with a bad or indifferent hand.

[astarck]

Obviously you don't want to do battle with the sb (especially since he can knock you out). But isn't pushing back at him all-in, not reraising, after only a few of his steal attempts vs later on, one of the better things to do? You have the most fold equity at this point, in the off chance he does call, if you win you will be a huge stack and can run the table, and lastly if he folds he probably won't steal your blinds next round and you can continue stealing from others at the table.

It seems to me that it is better to try to stop him early rather than later on.

[Blarg]

The possibility of just getting lucky and doubling your stack is kind of a dangerous argument, though, as almost anything can be justified "if you win."

Losing is another pretty realistic option. Would you want to be bounced out of the tourney just so you could spite call with QT? It's not that you might not have better cards than he has, or might not suck out with worse cards. But you just may have better opportunities. Including making up for being stolen too much from by stealing from others a little more than usual. That would depend on how you read the table, etc., but I'm just saying you almost seem to be taking it personally that the guy is grabbing your blinds and finding it very important not just to survive and prosper, but to do it ONE PARTICULAR WAY, that way being a confrontation with that guy whether or not you have the cards to make it a good idea, considering all your other options.

Lots of times I've found guys like these are gold mines if you can survive long enough. When the blinds get big and they either min-raise or start to push every hand instead of min-raising, then your slamming your stack back at him can mean you've just increased your stack by a third if he folds in response, or doubled through or better if you've got good cards and they hold up. A successful confrontation later in the game can mean a lot more to you than winning squabbles or preventing them earlier on. Your blinds and any extra winnings do a lot more for you.

Sometimes you also get in the situation of his making his move once too often and getting called by a rock, who wins and then lets you steal his blinds like crazy for the rest of the tourney.

I'm just saying that it's not so much how you survive or who the chips come from that matters, as surviving and getting chips. You may get rid of this guy and/or get his chips without having to force a low-margin, unnecessary confrontation.

[astarck]

Excellent post BTW. I agree 100% that getting lucky and doubling your stack is a very dangerous argument, but it is a possibility. Losing is also a realistic option, but one I'm not afraid of. The main point of me pushing back at him isn't to get lucky and double up, but rather to steal back his 450 chips and my blind. At this point in the tourney, the difference between -150 and +450 is HUGE. Not to mention the added benefit of saving 150 each and every orbit from here on out.

As for the spite calling with QTs, I'm not calling, I'm pushing my entire stack at him (which is roughly equivalent to his stack). It doesn't matter if I have 32o or AA, my goal is to get him to fold when I push (and for him to stop minraising my blind every orbit).

Furthermore, I'm not advocating doing this often. Just that it is an option you have when you notice this pattern each and every orbit. If he is mixing it up with limping in, minraising, and pushing then I don't push back unless I have a premium hand. It will be much harder to put him on a steal. But since he has developed a routine for minraising my blind every time, I want to stop it, keep my blinds, and continue to push when I am in sb.

You only need to do this once for him to stop for at least a few orbits.

[Python49]

Well this situation is rather unique... did you say you had pocket 3s the third time? If a guy kept raising my blinds by not going all in.. he leaves the door open to be reraised.. which leads me to think he's just on the steal and figures "at least i wont commit all of my chips if he does pick up a hand and goes all in". Theres not really a ton of options.. which is the beauty of stealing blinds, you either have to pick up a hand or you can reraise him all in and then you yourself have fold equity. Another good option that I always use is to just fold and then steal your big blinds blind. I figure its easier to just fold and steal your blinds blind than it is to try to take a stand with crap cards and run the risk of losing.

Also, instead of typing "im calling next time"... i usually type "lol you realize that all im looking for is jack high or better right?" that way if you fold they can assume you really are getting crap cards, but if you go all in they can figure you picked something up.

[lastchance]

Kinda odd, I admit.

What I'm saying there is don't be a maniac. You need to raise, but trying to bully people around simply doesn't work at the $11s. Getting emotional loses you chips. Fold and fight another day.

Depending on the hands opponent is doing this with, I push something like A7+, KJ+, 44+ back at him if I'm getting shortstacked. Top 15% or so might be good. There's no need to get into confrontations..

Astarck is right. Confrontations are -EV. But getting t450 is worth gambling your stack. The problem is, your FE isn't very high. Therefore, you need to increase showdown equity. You do that by playing good hands.

[Blarg]

This could be true, but the risk is high to find out. I guess it's about risk management. There's probably not a cut and dried answer about the best play here. I keep in mind, too, that there's always a good chance for him to win whether he starts out with a better hand or not, and that even habitual thiefs sometimes have a hand.

I think I feel more comfortable making decisions like this if I have some reads on the rest of the table and how things are shaping up. For instance, if he's stealing only from the button it's one thing, but if he's stealing from the cut-off as well, or if he seems to be playing every hand by either calling or raising, I'm figuring his chances of getting snapped off by someone go way up, lessening the pressure on me to provoke an immediate confrontation. Also, he who is playing too many hands is often winning a lot, giving him more chips to funnel at me if I finally get a good hand, raising the value of my waiting for a good situation instead of forcing myself to not just get some chips, but to get them from him personally.

I had a hand somewhat like this a little while ago where some clown who had been raising way too much all game pushed into me. I called too, sending my chips in the middle with QQ. There was an overcall by an EP player, who had limped, with AT, who was probably calling because he figured the original raiser had garbage and wasn't really thinking too much more about my hand except that maybe I knew the raiser had garbage so I was calling with garbage too. The habitual raiser had something like K9, I forget. Nobody hit anything, and I scooped a monster pot.

Guys who raise habitually make these things possible. They don't always happen, but the pay-off is so big when they do that I work it into my considerations of what to do against them, asking myself, Is it possible this guy could pay me off BIG? Maybe boost me right into the money?

It's all very iffy, but so is pushing your stack back at someone with QTo, and it's just one potentially positive outcome among many. Maybe it's much different at higher levels, but at the really low levels I play at, you're getting a lot of calls on this push, and QTo probably doesn't give you a big enough advantage that you won't be fairly likely to have a bigger advantage later. Even if it's just pushing any-two when your button comes up.

[astarck]

Two final points I would like to add are:

1) The blinds are not stagnant. Assuming you have just reached this level of blinds, you have exactly 2 orbits before the blinds increase and your FE lessens even more. Hurting your chances of stealing attempts later. Not only because you have less chips, but so do the others at the table from whom you are stealing off of.

2) Your stack isn't growing while this is happening. Going on the assumption you are stealing EVERY hand while in sb (and that is a big assumption) your stack remains the same, and even shrinks in relation to the increasing blinds. If you can steal when on the sb OR button, then you might average one steal/orbit. This is more likely, and you are still only keeping even with the blinds at this current level.

Making a stand (if you can put him on a steal) and forcing the villain to fold boosts your chips in relation to the blinds and those at the table, and stops him from stealing. IMHO, your best bet.

[tjh]

If I put someone on a blind stealing attempt I push. If I am wrong and they have a hand then I am done. If I am right and they fold then my problem is solved.

An aggressive player on your right can ruin your game. Put an end to it quick. Just my two cents. Once you quit being prey then you can begin to feed off of the blinds to your left.

My defense of the blinds is almost automatic. Suffering under this pressure is intollerable, you are playing against a good player, let them know that you are onto them. I fight back with all my chips, usually it works, if not then a potential difficult tourney is over and I can start a new one with hopefully softer competition. Face it this happens rarely enough that drastic response is called for.

Calling tells them that you have a hand. Pushing tells them that you know what they are doing and will not stand for it. So do not call, push.

Note that this is to raises not all-ins. All-ins I respect a little more.

--
tjh

[Blarg]

I think poker is too situational a game to allow for many one-size-fits-all responses.

There is value in doing it the way you describe, but also in other options.

[lastchance]

I disagree. IMHO, this is a stupid way to play because you will get called, and without a strong read at the $11/$22's, it's a huge mistake to try to steal from someone who will call you often. An aggressive player on the right may make your game hard, but restealing without FE is dumb, and against some players, that's what you are doing by reshoving.

Treat minraises with respect, because your opponent is calling, and getting called really sucks.

[TheNoodleMan]

I know that its taboo around here, but how about just calling and seeing a flop?
This guy has shown that he can steal your blind, but how's his post flop play?

[astarck]

Your response is to blarg, but it is one of his posts in which he doesn't suggest a way to play, so I'm thinking your response was actually intended for me.

All I can say is I think you are drastically overestimating the amount of calling that will be done at the low levels. They do call much more with relative garbage than in the higher levels, but they too aren't completely stupid and play to win (I think). I play in the 22-55s and I find that this play works wonders if I use it with caution (only when you notice the sb; or button for that matter, has fallen into a pattern of stealing).

If your post isn't to me, ignore the above.

[astarck]

The only thing I don't like with this is the blinds are getting too big to really maneuver (sp?) post-flop. I suppose a stop-n-go is an option though.

[lastchance]

Maybe you're right. But getting called is the biggest problem in the world on the bubble, at least to me. It's not that your opponents are calling with hands that beat you, it's that they are calling in general. And so, I really don't want to push any 2 back at this guy who calls with wide ranges. If he's somewhat sane otherwise, if the people to the right of me are folding, I can wait quite a while for a decent hand or two.

If the player to the left of me has fallen into a pattern of stealing and is not a loose fish otherwise, I see your play working, I guess. But I'd still rather not do it with any 2 unless I've got few BB.