From the internet to live play -- Giving off tells? [Archive]

billyjex

06-23-2005, 04:45 PM

Hey guys,

This question might be a little general but as I prepare for the main event I want to get some opinions on giving off tells.

As an internet player my live experience is just about nil. The biggest live tournament I've played in was $50 and it doesn't really matter how I conducted myself while in a hand -- my opponents weren't good enough to notice anything about me anyways.

I guess I'm wondering, especially to you guys who have been playing/played in the WSOP this year and previous years, are there any tells that I should concern myself about? Obviously I will try to sit still and motionless while I play a hand, but I'm wondering if some of those pros can pick up things not even I'm aware of..

James Lang

06-23-2005, 04:53 PM

Have you read Caro's book of poker tells yet? I read that on the way down to the NOLA circuit event, it helped a lot.

smoore

06-23-2005, 04:57 PM

breathing. Keep it the same when you bluff as when you have a monster.

bet actions. It's hard to stop trembling but make sure you're putting the chips in the same way every time.

preflop hole cards. Develop a procedure for how to look at/protect your cards. i.e. I always check them, stare at them for count of three and then put a chip on top of them.

lean angle. pick one and stick with it, I prefer elbows on table, slightly hunched. leaning forward/back is a pretty big way to start to give off tells.

wear a hat. The forehead is the hardest to control facial muscle (also nice and large).

I would go ahead and wear sunglasses. this is a big event and you don't want to give anything away, even at the expense of looking like an online douchebag (don't take offense, I'm an inet dbag too). Take some cards and a trusted poker friend with you to the sunglasses store to check for reflection. If the salespeople give you any crap just tell them how much the buy in is. This should set off commision bells in the person's head and they will probably go out of thier way to give you diffferent lighting and such /images/graemlins/wink.gif

and for god's sake, go play more $50 tournaments

billyjex

06-23-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and for god's sake, go play more $50 tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i will be, it's just a pain because the indian casino is 30 minutes away. i need to stop being lazy (it's too easy when I can play 4 tourneys at once at my home!)

thanks for the advice.

locutus2002

06-23-2005, 05:05 PM

Get sunglasses.

Players will stare you down for minutes on end in a crucial hand. When they're not looking at you they will be salivating over your chips.

As a novice live player I was looking at my cards before it was my turn to act because I wanted to be thinking about my play as the betting goes around the table. Everytime I looked up from my cards I could see 1/4 of the table was staring at me. I stopped looking at my cards in advance when we got short handed. If you plan to do this, make sure that your action is the same for hands you intend to play and hands you intend to fold. In hindsight I think they were just trying to protect their blinds from loose raises (steals). Act in turn: I saw the player to my left move for his chips just before I was going to move for mine.

GL.

RedRum

06-23-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and for god's sake, go play more $50 tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i will be, it's just a pain because the indian casino is 30 minutes away. i need to stop being lazy (it's too easy when I can play 4 tourneys at once at my home!)

thanks for the advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

30 minutes away!?! God I wish I was that close, I think it's 4 hours to a cheesy little indian job here, and 8 to biloxi.

/sigh

GL in the Main Event

plaid

06-23-2005, 05:17 PM

getting out of your seat and screaming daaah! after sucking out on an opponent is a pretty strong tell, IMHO.

seriously:
Caro's quick glance down at one's chips. I've seen that one a few times indicating a lot of strength (and the likelihood of a large bet or reraise). In a few instances, I have saved money by not bluffing because of that tell.

while we're at it...you should be looking for tells yourself. Try to make it a rule that you don't look at your cards until it's time to act pre-flop...post-flop, look at you opponents' reaction to the flop rather than the flop itself. Sounds easy, but I've found this to be a very hard thing to maintain. You're looking for any type of adrenaline rush (eg: breath, chest thump, veins in neck throbbing, eyes opening wide, etc...) flowing through the person as they see AA in their hand, or as they flop a set. It's damn hard to keep these routines going...you might want to play a few more of those $50 B&M tourneys, just to practice pulling your attention away from your own cards, and focusing on what the other guy has.

Basically, always keep your eyes and head up...only look down when you have to...and watch for that quick glance at one's own chips, while at the same time not doing it yourself (of course, this could be a false tell that someone is putting on you). Or as was said earlier, buy some sun glasses /images/graemlins/cool.gif

GL, Frank

MegaBet

06-23-2005, 05:45 PM

I guess my biggest flaw in live tourneys is fidgeting when I hit a big hand unexpectedly on the flop. Like completing the SB with J10 and the flop coming J J 10. Thank god the guy didn't read me on that one! haha

IHateKeithSmart

06-23-2005, 05:53 PM

Hey billy:

I am the opposite and have more of a B&M -> internet experience. I agree with all of smoore's advice except the sunglasses. If you are not used to wearing shades when playing, don't start now.

But, the real key to not giving off tells is to be consistent. Pay attention especially to how you handle your chips when calling/betting/raising. I would say practice offline if you have to.

Like smoore says, look at your cards the same way every time, and only when the action gets to you.

I never wear hats in real life, but always at the casino.

Good luck!
Jason

Tilt

06-23-2005, 06:25 PM

The pace at which you act after looking at your cards is a huge tell. Some hands are easy decisions, so you act quick, others require thought for the given the circumstances. A good player will deduce your range of hands just by thinking about the kind of hands you would struggle with/act readily with. So keep you pace constant.

TaoTe

06-23-2005, 06:26 PM

The chip glance is a tell I've found in many players. Staring at the flop for a prolonged period of time is another. I've done that myself when trying to figure out what two running cards can give me a straight or some other ridiculous draw I have because the flopped missed my hand.

I usually don't go out of my way to look for tells, as one may mean a monster hand for one person and stone cold bluff for another. I just try to recognize betting patterns and the type of player I'm up against: loose, tight, rock, insane, etc.

Oh yes, one very important tell you want to avoid. Don't talk during a hand. I never answer any questions except if asked how many chips you have left. I'm not sure of the rule, but does anyone know if you must answer this question, or can you have the dealer or floor person do it?

billyjex

06-23-2005, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yes, one very important tell you want to avoid. Don't talk during a hand. I never answer any questions except if asked how many chips you have left. I'm not sure of the rule, but does anyone know if you must answer this question, or can you have the dealer or floor person do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I really need to get some more live experience.

As to if you have to say your chip count, ont he WPT last night (Reno World Poker Challenge) Ivey was in a big hand with an amatuer and asked him to count his chips -- he wouldn't and asked the tournament director too, which was fine.

Temp Hutter

06-23-2005, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm wondering, especially to you guys who have been playing/played in the WSOP this year and previous years, are there any tells that I should concern myself about? Obviously I will try to sit still and motionless while I play a hand, but I'm wondering if some of those pros can pick up things not even I'm aware of..

[/ QUOTE ]

Fake tells are more fun. If you are a total unknown and you are up against a solid pro, I recommend giving them a few false tells. For instance, if you are looking for a call, act like you are bluffing and sit up in your chair and stare the guy down like you are trying to intimidate him into folding. You will be surprised how many very good players assume that you are a total schmuck and pay you off. Poker can be so much fun.

On a related note, the best advise I have is to not play scared. Good luck.

Temp

smoore

06-23-2005, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I never wear hats in real life, but always at the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, that's a great distinction.

Why would you recommend against glasses? Do you think he has enough time to mitigate these reasons between now and the ME in his $50 tournaments? I wear eyeglasses so sunglasses are just right out for me unless I got 'scrips... I think I would if I were to play in a big event.

RE chip counts: What happens if you lie? Say I'm facing a big bet from Ivey and push. Avg stack is say $50k and I obviously have less than that. He turns to me and says, "How deep are you?" I look him straight in the eye (from behind my prescription raybans, of course) and reply confidently, "Three hundred twenty five thousand, four hundred."

Do I get penalized in any way?

MLG

06-23-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I will try to sit still and motionless while I play a hand

[/ QUOTE ]

This isnt really the best idea. Instead, find a rythym or routine that your comfortable with and make sure you repeat it every hand. I find there are two crucial times. 1 is looking at your cards (I like to look right when I get them unless im the BB then I wait). The 2nd is when you are getting stared down. If its not natural for you to sit still then trying to do that will result in you giving something away. Focus on picking a spot to look at, and picking ang angle to sit at, the little things that are easily repeatable.

smoore

06-23-2005, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Focus on picking a spot to look at, and picking ang angle to sit at, the little things that are easily repeatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a great point. I think that's why I adopted the elbows on rail/slightly hunched posture. I like to stare at the dealer's hands during these uncomfortable moments.

DireWolf

06-23-2005, 07:04 PM

Off topic question:

say someone is staring you down? what are they looking for. In the few times i have had this happen to me, i have gotten kind of nervous whether i have a hand or not. and i would think it would differ for people?

MLG

06-23-2005, 07:07 PM

When I do it I'm looking for something different. I'm mentally comparing how they're acting now to how they acted when I saw a hand they showed down. I mean sometimes there's the classic strong means weak stuff, and sometimes somebody will start talking in a manner that gives away what they have, but generally Im just looking for something different.

DireWolf

06-23-2005, 07:11 PM

allright cool.

IHateKeithSmart

06-23-2005, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never wear hats in real life, but always at the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, that's a great distinction.

Why would you recommend against glasses? Do you think he has enough time to mitigate these reasons between now and the ME in his $50 tournaments? I wear eyeglasses so sunglasses are just right out for me unless I got 'scrips... I think I would if I were to play in a big event.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, whoops, shoulda said 'never wear hats outside of the casino'. WRT the glasses, it will feel unnatural if you haven't done it before. Plus, depending on where you're sitting, it can make the board harder to read. I tried wearing glasses at my first final table but ditched them after about 2 orbits b/c they didn't feel right, YMMV.

But, if you are used to wearing glasses, go for it.

smoore

06-23-2005, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, whoops, shoulda said 'never wear hats outside of the casino'. WRT the glasses, it will feel unnatural if you haven't done it before. Plus, depending on where you're sitting, it can make the board harder to read. I tried wearing glasses at my first final table but ditched them after about 2 orbits b/c they didn't feel right, YMMV.

[/ QUOTE ]

hah, I think you had it right the first time /images/graemlins/wink.gif

re glasses being uncomfortable: Yeah, I can see that point... I guess just because these things are on my nose all the time sunglasses would just have to be light enough to be able to see through.

Jason Strasser

06-23-2005, 07:35 PM

Hey MLG,

How many live tournaments have you played?

-Jason

MLG

06-23-2005, 08:06 PM

Bahamas, 2 WSOP (also 2 second chance tournies, and one at Bellagio), and a bunch of the weekly ones at foxwoods when I was in school in Ct. last year.

MastiffPaul

06-23-2005, 08:27 PM

One of my favorite players, whose name I sadly forget, seems to prevent himself from communicating tells by looking perpetually confused by whatever is going on. His opponent checks, he tilts his head slightly and goes slightly bug-eyed. His opponent goes all-in, he tilts his head slightly and goes slightly bug-eyed. It's hysterical, and I intend to imitiate him whenever I play poker offline.

O71394658

06-23-2005, 10:04 PM

John Juanda?

Doc7

07-04-2005, 02:32 PM

There's another poker player who says "quack quack!" before he makes his bets, and he does a lot of other quirky things too, to distract from any real tells/

Masquerade

07-04-2005, 04:27 PM

I really think vulnerability to tells is over-emphasised. It's more patterns of play that pros pick up on. Certainly slow down on some monsters so that when you are genuinely thinking it isnt obvious. Just think through your move, come to a decision and execute it.

There really isn't any distinction in my mind between, say, betting top pair because I think I'm best, betting with a strong draw, or betting with nothing because I think it might cause someone to fold. All my plays are the one I consider most suitable in the specific circumstances so in one sense they are all the same. If anyone can pick up on what I have despite that then good luck to them.

future

07-04-2005, 04:30 PM

Wear a hat, sunglasses, and a jacket like Phil Hellmuth's UB jacket (covers up your neck- your pulse may be beating really fast). Put your chips in the pot the same way every time. Take the same amount of time on every decision if you can. Have the same routine after every action you make i.e. cross your arms or put ur hands on your chin.

If someone asks you how many chips you have left you do not have to answer, you can have the dealer act for you.