Should I Consider Open-Limping Under These Table Conditions?

[PokrLikeItsProse]

6-max table where I am seeing way too many four-handed raised pots for my comfort level when I open for a raise. I have conditioned myself to never open-limp in a short-handed game and I am wondering if I need to adjust.

Most books suggest there are hands that play best with one or two callers and hands that play best with at least four callers. A four-handed raised pot seems like a difficult situation that books suggest avoiding.

I can't believe that I should fold a hand like KJo if it's folded to me in the CO, and I have problems with the idea I should limp with that hand. But I am running into way too many situations where I flop top pair and get outkicked (yes, this means sometimes the button is cold-calling with AK, and I have problems reading that sort of player). I do sometimes still pick up the blinds with a raise, but it's also not unusual to raise and get called by 58s, A8o and QJo.

I've been trying to move up in limits, but I keep having problems with this sort of table. I don't know if I'm just running into players who refuse to respect any of my raises because they see me open-raise on the button with A7o or K9, but raised multi-way pots are occurring a lot more frequently and, with more aggressive opponents, I am having problems evaluating my chances of winning when I have several opponents who have a wide range of hands they could be playing.

Right now, I am contemplating the idea of limping more often in the first two spots of a 6max table. The idea is that with aggressive opponents, I give them a chance to define their hands by either calling or raising against a pre-flop limper, giving me more information than I can get from if they are cold-calling a raiser. Of course, there are several problems with that strategy, such as opening myself up to being bluffed off the best hand more often, and I must occasionally limp with premium hands to avoid giving away information.

I'm also considering the idea that this is a table selection problem. But I know that these tables often have 2-3 decent players who I have in the past schooled if we are together with four bad players. I am, frankly, better than them at extracting money from poor players. Which isn't to say that I am playing at strong tables. It's just that instead of two good players contending for the money of four fish, it's more like three good players contending for the money of two average players and one fish at twice the stakes. I am exploring the idea that my game is optimized toward one specific type of table conditions and that I need to adjust, which is why I bring up the idea of open-limping more often.

Has anyone gone through this sort of adjustment period?

[Subby]

Open limping from EP is a horrid mistake, in my opinion. The only time I am limping from *any* position is if I have ace-runt suited or runt pairs and there are at least one or two peeps already in the pot.

There are a number of reasons why raising pf is the best move, but at it's core, you are representing strength and establishing control of the hand.

So what if people don't respect your raises? Would you rather everyone fold their blinds around to you? 6max is about aggression and the easiest players to beat are the weak passive ones. Just don't sit there and let the game happen to you.

Everytime your preflop raise gets cold called, be happy. There is a good chance your opponent has just made a mistake.

[luckyharr]

If you are consistently getting into raised 4 handed pots with position and the best hand preflop, then you shouldn't be worried. Focus on not giving that edge back postflop. Don't get attached to your hands when it's evident you aren't best, and don't try to steal pots from players who won't fold.

The answer is definitely not open limping. Admittedly, I've had that feeling before too when running bad. I'd think "These guys are going to call anyways so I may as well limp." It may be an indication that you shouldn't be playing that hand from that position. What hands are you considering open limping?

Also, if you are seeing a lot of 4 handed raised pots at 5/10, then your problem is not table selection.

[sthief09]

your misunderstanding lies in the reason for blind stealing. sure, it's nice to pick up the blinds. afterall, it's free money. but you're doing ti because you have position and you gain initiative, and both of these are valuable.

[sthief09]

ace-runt... I like that

[PokrLikeItsProse]

First to specify, I think these tables tend to have a lot of calling before the flop then become more aggressive after the flop. I think I probably three-bet about half the times I get check-raised if it is heads-up, but the multi-way pots are still difficult to evaluate because I am not used to them. Also, I don't necessary have position. Many times, I am raising in the CO or to the right of that seat and I have a caller with position on me.

Right now, I am contemplating occasionally open-limping to manage table-image, that is to give up some value on certain hands to make money on future hands. The idea is not to start limping with specific hands, but to identify certain situations when limping with a hand I might otherwise open with will affect the psychology of the table. I don't want to be perceived as so loose that I am able to bluff on later streets.

I also sometimes tend to be overaggressive and part of the idea of limping occasionally is to throttle back my own aggressiveness to a more profitable level. For example, I've been working on not automatically betting out when I raise preflop. I still do most of the time, but the goal is to not do so predictably and to set up spots where I can induce a bluff or check-raise on a later street to extract more money.

As for the hands I would limp with, I'm not sure. I'm still in the theoretical stage. One poker player who I respect suggested a plausible range for opening UTG in a five-handed game to be something like AA-44, AKs-A4s, AKo-A7o, any two cards nine or higher, if I recall correctly. I play somewhat tighter than that, although my exact standards vary from hour to hour. My instinct tells me to consider limping with hands that will be raised by better hands and so will be easier to get away from, but which have a chance to dominate hands that would have folded to a raise but will call a limp. This would suggest medium aces might be good to limp with, since AK and AQ and sometimes AJ are raised and I can play A9 more tentatively if an ace flops, and sometimes fold, while a hand like Q9o might call if I just limp in, but fold if I raise, and would be in a world of hurt if the flop comes nine-high. Also, having show weakness before the flop, I may be able to induce more bluffs on the river, and ace-high can be a good bluff-catching hand for the right board.

[kidcolin]

It seems to me you're just uncomfortable playing multiway pots. I think that's what you need to focus on, rather than rationalize reasons to lose less money in uncomfortable situations.

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is not to start limping with specific hands, but to identify certain situations when limping with a hand I might otherwise open with will affect the psychology of the table. I don't want to be perceived as so loose that I am able to bluff on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not buying this, for a couple reasons. One, most loose passive players who are apt to cold call raises aren't really concerned with the pyschological aspects of the game. They're just playing their cards. Limping just lets them make less mistakes.

Secondly, you don't really want to be bluffing on later streets in multiway pots too often. The pot is usually too protected to get away with it. Opportunities do come up, but much less often.

So I say just work on your game in these multiway pots and keep jacking those pots up when you have an edge.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me you're just uncomfortable playing multiway pots. I think that's what you need to focus on, rather than rationalize reasons to lose less money in uncomfortable situations.

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is not to start limping with specific hands, but to identify certain situations when limping with a hand I might otherwise open with will affect the psychology of the table. I don't want to be perceived as so loose that I am able to bluff on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not buying this, for a couple reasons. One, most loose passive players who are apt to cold call raises aren't really concerned with the pyschological aspects of the game. They're just playing their cards. Limping just lets them make less mistakes.

Secondly, you don't really want to be bluffing on later streets in multiway pots too often. The pot is usually too protected to get away with it. Opportunities do come up, but much less often.

So I say just work on your game in these multiway pots and keep jacking those pots up when you have an edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

One, I'm concerned with players who are more loose passive before the flop and aggressive, but not necessarily smartly so, after the flop. It is very difficult to play top pair Q kicker when top pair with a worse kicker and two overcards are capping the flop without your help in a multiway pot. I am also considering that against these players, I should wave the red flag and let the bulls charge on the flop and delay my aggression for the turn, but that's harder to do if I raise UTG and get called by the CO, button, and big blind.

Second, I am talking about bluffing on later hands which are heads up. I umderstand the concept of multiway pots being protected.

[aK13]

FWIW, it's hard to bluff loose passives...

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
One, I'm concerned with players who are more loose passive before the flop and aggressive, but not necessarily smartly so, after the flop. It is very difficult to play top pair Q kicker when top pair with a worse kicker and two overcards are capping the flop without your help in a multiway pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how not raising pre-flop makes it any easier to play against people who go to war on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I am also considering that against these players, I should wave the red flag and let the bulls charge on the flop and delay my aggression for the turn, but that's harder to do if I raise UTG and get called by the CO, button, and big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[blackize]

I am also having problems beating these loose passives. If I raise AK or KQ or KJ and hit top pair. In a 4 way shorthanded pot everyone wants to call down with their draw or any piece of the board. I am frequently having people catch their kicker on the river, trip up their bottom or mid pair, or their TPWK turns into a runner runner straight. Up against 3 or 4 people willing to call down like this, it is very difficult to determine where you are at. A lot of the time they will raise or cap with TPWK. You have no fold equity and with even a semi coordinated board 3 players chasing significantly hinders your odds of winning.

I have found that limping and then check raising or raising on the flop is more effective at folding opponents who otherwise would have odds to chase.

I know that limping usually is not correct, but I would rather have the chasers not have proper odds.

[kidcolin]

That's why you raise preflop.. to punish their terrible preflop decision. And some of the hands you're complaining about (TPWK catching their 3 outer and mid pocket pairs catching their two outer) aren't even getting proper odds.

You've got to punish weak hands the first chance you get.

[Victor]

just grow a sack and raise. i have a hard time believeing that a majority of the time you will be outkicked from the co with kj. you have an equity advantage

[helpmeout]

You cant win everytime.

If you have AK with a king on the board and 3 callers you might win 50% of the time. This cant be bad.

You just have to get use to being beaten on the river with good hands.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am also considering that against these players, I should wave the red flag and let the bulls charge on the flop and delay my aggression for the turn, but that's harder to do if I raise UTG and get called by the CO, button, and big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly think that one of my problems is that I bet out too much on the flop when I can make more money slowplaying and check-raising the flop or turn. It's probably been at least a month since the last time I checked a set on the flop and waited until the turn to raise. I automatically bet out with trips, hoping to induce a call and a bluff raise on the turn.

I want to force myself to slow down and re-evaluate my opponents instead of getting frustrated.