I hate small pots (QJo)

[ElAnimal]

I've only got 10 hands on UTG and UTG+2 but they've both got VPIPs around 70% with postflop aggression under 1.00.


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero...

The pot is pathetic and I have no clue which outs (if any) are clean. A king is probably good, but a split is a real possibility. Sklansky and the gang are always warning against one-card flush draws less than the second nut, which is what I have here, though since nobody bet the flop I doubt anybody has the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. There's also the chance I still have the best hand. I need to believe I have what amounts to 7 outs or the best hand to try to win this pocket change. I have a feeling I'm going to hear "are you nuts? Call." Is that about right?

[Borno]

I call. UTG may be trying to steal.. you're looking pretty good. I might fold on the end.. depends on action. If UTG bets again I pay off...

[toss]

Hmmm, I would raise. I think UTG donkbet with a onecard lfush and UTG+2 is calling with who knows what. I'm checking behind on the river if possible unless the river is a non/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K or Q.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I would raise. I think UTG donkbet with a onecard lfush and UTG+2 is calling with who knows what. I'm checking behind on the river if possible unless the river is a non/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K or Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not peel one off here? With a raise here do you fold to a 3 bet?

[crunchy1]

If you've only got 10 hands on each of these Villians are they from this session? Aside from stats what have you seen them do in those ten hands. You've seen them play 7 of them - are they going to showdown a lot and with what? Are they folding on the turn? I know ten hands isn't really a solid read - but little non-statistical details like this can at least provide some decent info on how they're playing in this current subset of hands.

If I had any feeling that they were weak post-flop players I'd be raising PF to knock out the blinds and isolate them. The whole hand would play differently then.

As it is my approximating calculations give you about 7 outs getting a little less than 4-to-1 (w/implied odds). This might seem low but I'm not calculating a river raise. I'm not sure any of your outs are clean enough to raise the river if you hit a Q, K, or diamond after a LP leads the turn.

Close decision. I'm not sure that there's a huge difference in the long run between calling and folding.

[toss]

Nah pot would be too big to fold.

I like raising since we can see a showdown esier. What happens if the river is a blank and UTG bets again? Wouldn't it be enticing to showdown there since you're closing the action and the pot will be like 7-8BB large? You'd think, "theres gotta be a chance my hand is good 12.5% of the time here."

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I would raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this too under the following two conditions:

(A) Hero folds to a turn 3-bet
(B) Hero checks behind on the river as per your condition (bet a river non-diamond K/Q)

[toss]

Come on ten hands is nothing. The only read I would rely on in ten hands is how villain played a previous hand. Like he capped 27o all streets then I would classify him as a LAG. Even this isn't for sure since he may feel like donking for one hand.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I would raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this too under the following two conditions:

(A) Hero folds to a turn 3-bet
(B) Hero checks behind on the river as per your condition (bet a river non-diamond K/Q)

[/ QUOTE ]

ty for saving me the typing

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on ten hands is nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. But if in 10 hands Hero has seen them play 7 - then there's certainly some good information about how they play that's become available.

[toss]

Now I can agree with that.

[ElAnimal]

[ QUOTE ]
If you've only got 10 hands on each of these Villians are they from this session? Aside from stats what have you seen them do in those ten hands. You've seen them play 7 of them - are they going to showdown a lot and with what? Are they folding on the turn? I know ten hands isn't really a solid read - but little non-statistical details like this can at least provide some decent info on how they're playing in this current subset of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

All important questions and I wish I had answers, but I was playing four tables and relied heavily on PT numbers. They were very passive, saw a lot of showdowns and played poorly postflop in the short time I was at the table.

At first I liked the idea of the raise, but I felt like these guys would almost never fold to a raise with just one more bet back to them. Plus, with them being so passive, it would cost me the same to call down and I might get to check behind on the river after the turn call, saving a bet.

I ended up folding, but I feel like a calldown was in order as long as UTG+2 didn't raise the river.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this too under the following two conditions:

(A) Hero folds to a turn 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising and folding to a 3-bet becomes a huge mistake if our opponent has a small flush and we are still drawing very live. This pot is not that big... but in general this line could be very expensive if we are prepared to drop potentially live draws.

Raising for a free showdown would be applicable if we had a hand with very few, if any, outs if we are behind. This is not one of those spots.

[SmileyEH]

I like raising this preflop and taking the iniative. If the blinds are loose calling is ok.

-SmileyEH

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like this too under the following two conditions:
(A) Hero folds to a turn 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising and folding to a 3-bet becomes a huge mistake if our opponent has a small flush and we are still drawing very live. This pot is not that big... but in general this line could be very expensive if we are prepared to drop potentially live draws.

[/ QUOTE ]
The size of the pot dictates that this cannot be a huge mistake. Obviously Hero is not doing this all the time. These opponents have been targeted as somewhat LP and weak post-flop. UTGs are not 3-betting with small flushes here enough to make folding to a 3-bet a mistake.

[tpir90036]

I said that the pot was not that big in this hand and then went on make a general statement. I don't think that raising and folding to a 3-bet is necessarily bad in *this* hand. Just pointing out that this line is more applicable to spots where we have few outs if we are still ahead... this may or may not be one of those spots.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
All important questions and I wish I had answers, but I was playing four tables and relied heavily on PT numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were very passive, saw a lot of showdowns and played poorly postflop in the short time I was at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

So which is it? We're you paying attention aside from just using your PT reads or not?

I only comment on this because I think those of you who (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular here) are making decisions because "PT said to" are probably missing some value spots and at the same time losing some BBs where you shouldn't be. I 4-table too and I watch TV, talk to my fiancee, laugh at the dog and still manage to be taking detailed notes on pots that I'm both involved and not involved in.

Our VP$IPs are low enough that at best we're really only playing 1 hand at a time (4-tabling that would be a VP$IP of 25%). Most of the time we're going through hot/cold streaks where the cold streaks should provide plenty of time to jot down a couple quick notes on your opponents. If you can't do this while playing then I recommend reviewing at least some of your PT hands after the session, making notes during your review and then exporting them so they're available at the table the next session.

BTW Animal - if they were poor post-flop but were seeing a lot of showdowns then I don't mind limping on the button and trying to outflop/outplay them.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Just pointing out that this line is more applicable to spots where we have few outs if we are still ahead...

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Do you dispute that a 3-bet from one of these UTG players indicates that Hero has more than a few outs? Personally, I think I'm drawing dead if I get 3-bet on the turn.

[crunchy1]

btw - Don't misinterpret my position here. I'm not neccessarily advocating the raise/fold line on the turn. I simply think that it's plausible given the specified conditions.

[ckessel]

"I like big pots and I can't deny..."

Small pot, 2nd best pair, non-nut 1-card flush draw. I'd favor folding I think, but it's close.

[toss]

What about postflop. I'd like to see some more input on the turn to see if I'm lag or not.