One line doesn't fit all...

[scrub]

Evan played this hand against me in Vegas, and I think it illustrates a weakness in a lot of online multitablers' games.

Evan is BB, I am SB. It's folded to an erratic and terrible player on the button who openlimps. He would do this with any hand he would play, which is just about any two cards. I complete, Evan raises QJs, and we both call.

The flop is 356r. I bet. Evan calls. Crappy guy calls.

The turn is a rainbow-completing Jack. I bet. Evan raises. I 3-bet. Evan folds.

Thoughts?

scrub

[johnnymac]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?


[/ QUOTE ]

What cards were you dealt?

Joe

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]


Thoughts?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, why didn't he raise the flop?

[chief444]

I think calling the first turn bet is an option to consider for Evan although I like the raise. I think he should call your 3-bet...since you know there are a lot of not so strong hands Evan may raise and consider folding here.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?


[/ QUOTE ]

What cards were you dealt?

Joe

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely irrelevant.

scrub

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like he was trying for a free showdown and you knew he was going for it blah blah blah. Against a good aggressive player I don't like the free showdown play as much since it opens us up to getting outplayed. I think calling down is fine.

I am also inclined to say that he should raise the flop to get the button out.... but I think he is getting 3-bet here somewhere around 100% of the time and that board is not the best.

[Entity]

Evan used to do this a lot. I exploited it a lot when we played a HU match. I don't know how often he still does it, or if he's done it to you often enough that you can exploit it, but it's one of those he-knows-I-know-he-knows sort of things, and I don't think bad player is holding anything that's a terrible threat to your equity that you need to raise out, so I'd probably just call.

Man, that was a convoluted sentence.

Now I really want to hear why Joe Tall raises this flop.

Rob

[adamstewart]

I don't understand Evan's fold.

(Even if he's behind, he still has decent odds to draw to improve - not to mention he may have the best hand).



Adam


Adam

[poker-penguin]

That's a weird fold, especially against an aggressive player.

I would have called and check called for sure, maybe even capped it (if four bet cap) when I turned top pair if I knew you were an aggressive SOB.

[thejameser]

my thought is that is a weak fold. i don't know his read on you, but reading Entity's post this seems to be a tendency in his game, so play it for what its worth. your line seems to have been player specific and a great iso move for the goofball player, as you are now HU. so you think alot of posters/online players raise/fold to the 3 bet too often(is this specific to the free showdown play, or just a statement in general?). i can agree with this based on what i have witnessed, coincidentally enough, i don't recall seeing it happen live but maybe once or twice(in obvious bluff attempts).

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan played this hand against me in Vegas, and I think it illustrates a weakness in a lot of online multitablers' games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, it was a misclick I bet.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I really want to hear why Joe Tall raises this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just reread the thread and I would like to hear more about this too. Some random thoughts:

- The button probably has some pair outs that we would not mind clearing out if possible.
- It might get us a free card...but I sersiously doubt that.
- It could set up a scrub turn fold if an A/K comes
- Raising is fun

I'm done now.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a rainbow-completing Jack. I bet. Evan raises. I 3-bet. Evan folds.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I hate the raise and fold to a 3-bet on this board. You've bet out twice on a coordinated board, one which could easily hit a SB complete type of hand. When the J hits, Evan is either now way ahead, or still way behind.

The third player makes things complicated a little bit. If I felt like it looks like he's going to fold, and I'm going to fold to a 3-bet if I raise, then I'd much rather use those 2 BB's to just get to showdown. He may miss out on some value for the times that you'll call a turn raise, and a river bet. But his hand has some showdown value, and I'd like to get there in this case for the same price as raising and folding to the 3-bet.

If the third player is going to likely come along, then that changes things. In this case, it may still be worth just calling if this guy is likely drawing thin or dead, between the two of you.

Anyway, I see people advocate that raise and fold to a 3-bet on the turn line all of the time, and I really think it only applies to certain situations. I don't think this is one of them.

[VBM]

forgive me as i might be stating the obvious, but is the weakness you've described too-narrowly defining an opponent's range and using this range to make poker decisions?

what happened to terrible player on the turn? folded to Evan's raise?

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now I really want to hear why Joe Tall raises this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just reread the thread and I would like to hear more about this too. Some random thoughts:

- The button probably has some pair outs that we would not mind clearing out if possible.
- It might get us a free card...but I sersiously doubt that.
- It could set up a scrub turn fold if an A/K comes

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's all of the above. Also though, given that bad players like to call, especially when it comes to peeling one off on the flop, and we know he's likely to come along, I think just calling Scrub's bet pretty much says "I have overcards".

I'd probably like a flop raise a little better though if I had an A. I'll be interested to hear Joe's thoughts as well.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be interested to hear Joe's thoughts as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bumping myself. I think this hand deserves more discussion.

[JTG51]

"When the J hits, Evan is either now way ahead, or still way behind."

Scrub could easily have a 13 out hand with something like 64s here.

[aK13]

I think this is a very read dependent play (by you). When he calls your flop bet, you most certainly have him pinned on overs. When he raises the turn with the J, he's pretty much telling you he's got a J, but your 3bet announces that "I can beat a pair of J", so he folds. Although I don't really think you have him beat here, I think you did an excellent job of exploiting his analysis.

Or I don't know what I'm talking about. I'd also like to know why Joe raises this flop.

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it illustrates a weakness in a lot of online multitablers' games.

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub:

at some point i hope that you will articulate that to which you infer in the above quote.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan played this hand against me in Vegas, and I think it illustrates a weakness in a lot of online multitablers' games.

Evan is BB, I am SB. It's folded to an erratic and terrible player on the button who openlimps. He would do this with any hand he would play, which is just about any two cards. I complete, Evan raises QJs, and we both call.

The flop is 356r. I bet. Evan calls. Crappy guy calls.

The turn is a rainbow-completing Jack. I bet. Evan raises. I 3-bet. Evan folds.

Thoughts?

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the flop is some good.

if im raising this pf and not raising the flop, im 4betting and calling a 5bet on this turn everytime.

HU against a tricky TAG who has seen me play is not the time to be folding top pair with a great kicker.

scrub: answer my pm. sil vous plait.

peace

john nickle

[SCfuji]

hey scrub.

did crappy guy fold to evans raise on the turn?

the way it went, i call call call and if i put in a raise its on the river if i feel the river card is harmless enough. harmless as in 9-K. if the board pairs i dont think i raise and if some lowly straight card comes i dont raise.

[Joe Tall]

If Evan thinks his overcards are clean, he needs to blow out the button in addition to his preflop raise has represented a big hand. Scrub's bet is draw or small piece screamin. Therefore if Evan get this heads up, he picks up 6 more outs, theoretically, such as an A or K comes is a prefect card to get Scrub to slow with his 64o, or what ever cheese the laggard completed with and can get him to fold it on the river if it blanks. I especially like a flop raise if Evan has the backdoor working, there is a small chance at the free card.

Calling is just crappy here, fold it or take control.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan played this hand against me in Vegas, and I think it illustrates a weakness in a lot of online multitablers' games.

Evan is BB, I am SB. It's folded to an erratic and terrible player on the button who openlimps. He would do this with any hand he would play, which is just about any two cards. I complete, Evan raises QJs, and we both call.

The flop is 356r. I bet. Evan calls. Crappy guy calls.

The turn is a rainbow-completing Jack. I bet. Evan raises. I 3-bet. Evan folds.

Thoughts?

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot all about this thread until Joe sent me a PM reminding me to reply to it--sorry about the delay.

I had A6o, which I usually wouldn't have played this way. I know many people would want to raise preflop in this spot to try to get Evan out, but I didn't feel like he would fold often enough to justify the raise given how miserable the hand was going to be to play postflop in a larger pot.

My other concern was that the button was horrendous, and I had developed a friendly dynamic with him when we played in heads up pots. He was playing just about every hand, and every time I isolation raised him he was passively calling down as if I always had aces, giving me free showdowns when I wanted them and calling river bets when I had enough to value bet. He was in a good mood and seemed thrilled to lose as long as he lost to me. I was concerned that if I showed down the A6o after raising it preflop in that spot--and I expected to have to go to showdown--I might disrupt an extremely profitable dynamic for the sake of a raise that wasn't particularly profitable to begin with.

Anyway, I didn't think that Evan thought that I habitually bet into him without a pair in these spots. I also figured that he thought I was very capable of leading into him with a big piece of the flop here since I wouldn't be that worried about blowing the button off of his hand for two bets on the flop. In my experience, Evan rarely waits until the turn with an overpair in this spot.

When he just called the flop, I wasn't sure what to make of it, but I didn't think a slowplayed overpair was a large component of his hands. At the time, I thought that he may play overcards with showdown value like this, planning to raise a blank turn for a free showdown or to try to get me to fold a weak pair and to force the button to call two cold on a street that would probably fold without a pair.

I had also noticed that Evan wasn't getting to a lot of showdowns against the other players at the table. He was raising and betting a lot of turns and folding to raises or 3-bets.

These expensive lines that don't get your hand to showdown seem to be in fashion on the boards and in a lot of online games, and I agree that they can be profitable against passive-mechanical players, but I think they break down rapidly as opponents become irrationally aggressive or active hand readers.

When Evan raised, I thought his most likely hands were a turned jack or unimproved overcards looking for a showdown. I wasn't sure if Evan would have overcards often enough to justify a turn call, but then it occurred to me that Evan would probably try to save a few bets and fold a jack too often to me if I 3-bet, putting me on a set or something.

I'm not sure that I played the hand that well--Evan tells me that he would never have raised me without at least a jack on this turn--but I'm positive that habitually assuming that you have a good enough read on another thinking player's hand to fold something as strong as top pair with a decent kicker is a mistake.

There are a bunch of canonical lines that get discussed a lot on these boards that are open to similar exploitation, and I think it's dangerous to habitually employ these lines against thinking players who know who you are.

scrub

[Evan]

EDIT: Apparently I misunderstood what scrub meant, so my post didn't make any sense.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Evan tells me that he would never have raised me without at least a jack on this turn

[/ QUOTE ]
I just said I wouldn't have raised there with ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you also said you wouldn't have waited with a pair, which doesn't leave a lot of hands for you to be raising that aren't a jack...

scrub

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
did crappy guy fold to evans raise on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

scrub

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a bunch of canonical lines that get discussed a lot on these boards that are open to similar exploitation, and I think it's dangerous to habitually employ these lines against thinking players who know who you are.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, yes, yes! Awesome post, and I love this part of it.

I also love what you wrote about the table dynamics. Online you can pound away, but live I agree that sometimes you might have to miss a bet here or there to keep a profitable situation going. This includes not "picking on" a guy who's having a good time, thinks he's having a fun sparring session with you, but might pick up on a few things if you hammer him over and over again.

Anyway, good post.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
If Evan thinks his overcards are clean, he needs to blow out the button in addition to his preflop raise has represented a big hand. Scrub's bet is draw or small piece screamin. Therefore if Evan get this heads up, he picks up 6 more outs, theoretically, such as an A or K comes is a prefect card to get Scrub to slow with his 64o, or what ever cheese the laggard completed with and can get him to fold it on the river if it blanks. I especially like a flop raise if Evan has the backdoor working, there is a small chance at the free card.

Calling is just crappy here, fold it or take control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Joe.

Rob

[W. Deranged]

What do people think about Evan calling Scrub's turn bet and raising the river?

I really don't think I can fold this to a three bet (nor, as people have pointed out, should I against a thinking, aggressive player).

So I approach this hand in terms of a "number of bets" standpoint. My thought is that if only two bets each go in on the final two streets, I have not extracted enough value for the times I'm ahead. Similarly, if four bets or more go in, it means that at some point Scrub showed big strength and I might have put in too many bets when I'm way behind (and/or be forced into folding the best hand).

So, the "Magic number of bets" on this hand is 3. So I'm looking at the way to get three bets apiece in with the least risk of getting forced into putting more bets in.

I think the best way to do this is to call the turn and raise the river, which is less likely to induce a reraise from scrub than a turn raise and gets in the same number of bets for those times I'm well ahead with my pair of jacks.

I realize this is bizarre logic... please rip me apart on this "number of bets" idea... It's not all that theoretically specific, but I find it a helpful concept.

[MCS]

I like you "number of bets" idea, but I wonder if it isn't susceptibale to the same sort of thinking that Scrub used on the turn. Specifically, that if he knows Evan will fold to a 3-bet, he can still 3-bet the A6o on the river.

But I doubt Scrub would make that specific move if he hasn't seen Evan go raise-and-fold-to-a-3bet on the river before, whereas he HAS seen Evan do that on the turn.

Also, I suppose Evan is less likely to fold the river anyway because he can end the hand with a call. When Scrub 3-bets the turn, Evan has to worry about paying off on the river as well, so his effective odds are lower.

Calling the turn lets the button hang around. How concerned are we about this?