33 in ep

[Wynton]

I don't normally play 33 unless in lp, but I fell prone to the "this is my last hand of session so I'll do something unusual syndrome." Never a good idea. Guess I was hoping that villain had AK.

I'm not interested in comments about the river, because it seems like an obvious fold in retrospect. But what about the other streets?

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.16 BB

[krishanleong]

everything else looks okay.

Krishan

[Maulik]

in NL I bring this in for a raise. In limit, I'd rather muck this hand 6 handed rather than play it. When face calls fall, you're done unless you've hit a set. Is it extremely profitable to bring it in for a raise SH?

[Mig]

heads up, they are quite good. even as low as 22. Should be +ev to play pairs as low as 22 if you know how to play them... ep it's either a call in passive game and fold agro.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
everything else looks okay.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]






Are you serious?


Fold Preflop.

Fold to the flop 3-bet.

Fold the river.



Adam

[kurosh]

Why did you raise the flop?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
heads up, they are quite good. even as low as 22. Should be +ev to play pairs as low as 22 if you know how to play them... ep it's either a call in passive game and fold agro.

[/ QUOTE ]

My intution which has been wrong before says limp in passive game and bring it in for a raise in an aggressive game.

[Wynton]

Like I said, I usually muck this. But 2 factors led me to raise. First, I had a tight image (ok reason). Second, I was planning to leave after this hand (stupid reason).

But I certainly don't think limping was an option. To me, this was either raise or fold.

[kurosh]

I asked why did you raise the FLOP, not preflop.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was possible I actually had the best hand on the flop. Even if I didn't, was it unreasonable to represent the best hand here by raising?

I can understand the argument for folding when the flop is 3-bet, though.

[kurosh]

Ok, he has AK. Do you still want to raise the flop?

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, he has AK. Do you still want to raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I did. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif If he had AK, I figured there was a small chance my raise might lead him to fold right there and a better chance that he would then fold on turn if there was no A or K.

And I think that with a pair of 3s, my goal should be to make my opponent fold as soon as possible.

Are you suggesting that, if my opponent had AK, I'd protect the hand more effectively by waiting till the turn to raise?

[Trix]

I dont mind the flopraise aslong as you are fairly certain that he wont 3bet a worse hand. The call is easy too with your backdoors.

Turn is easy aswell.

Having got to the river I´d call and expect to win more than 10%.

Preflop is up to you to figure out, I wouldn´t do it without knowing something about the players behind and you haven´t given any description.

[ALL1N]

Ugh wayyy too many chips. River call is bad. Flop call is bad. Flop raise is bad. Preflop is perhaps ok!

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
everything else looks okay.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]






Are you serious?


Fold Preflop.

Fold to the flop 3-bet.

Fold the river.



Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I [censored] this one up. He knows he was suppose to fold preflop. He was just trying a move. Folding to the flop 3-bet is absolutely necessary. You tried to make a move on overcards and he came over the top. Let it go.

Turn is good, fold the river.

Krishan

[tongni]

Raise the turn?

EDIT: Oops. Wrong limit. I can probably find a fold on the turn.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh wayyy too many chips. River call is bad. Flop call is bad. Flop raise is bad. Preflop is perhaps ok!

[/ QUOTE ]

When you say flop call is bad, do you mean calling the 3-bet, or do you mean I shouldn't have raised the initial flop bet?

Again, I'm not really asking about preflop or river, as both moves I made despite kind of knowing better. And the turn seems ok to me since I picked up a straight draw. Only interesting part I think is how to play the flop.

[DMBFan23]

Cliffs notes:

krishan: hmm looks good postflop
adam: no
trix: hmm looks good postflop
krishan: oops adam you were right

me: head spins

[ALL1N]

Trix &amp; I discussed the hand a bit. Don't wanna type it out again. Here:

[00:54] &lt;Trixx&gt; you really think that 33 hand is that bad?
[00:54] &lt;ALL1N&gt; well
[00:54] &lt;ALL1N&gt; i gave it a bit of a ragging
[00:54] &lt;ALL1N&gt; each play in isolation isn't bad
[00:54] &lt;ALL1N&gt; but together it doesn't make sense
[00:55] &lt;ALL1N&gt; if u raise the flop it should be so that u can determine if you're ahead or not
[00:55] &lt;ALL1N&gt; so against a predictable player it's ok
[00:55] &lt;Trixx&gt; ofcourse
[00:55] &lt;ALL1N&gt; i don't think the backdoor outs are good enough to call the 3-bet
[00:55] &lt;Trixx&gt; hm
[00:56] &lt;ALL1N&gt; but yeah, the flop raise and river call is what clash most
[00:56] &lt;Trixx&gt; think i may be valuing backdoors more than most :P
[00:56] &lt;ALL1N&gt; /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
[00:56] &lt;ALL1N&gt; a flush one is just under 2 outs
[00:56] &lt;ALL1N&gt; but this is the 2nd worst flush
[00:56] &lt;ALL1N&gt; it'll only be good just over 50%
[00:57] &lt;ALL1N&gt; so say thats 1 out
[00:57] &lt;ALL1N&gt; with reverse implied odds
[00:57] &lt;ALL1N&gt; and the runner runner straight is pretty yuck
[00:57] &lt;Trixx&gt; its worth something
[00:57] &lt;ALL1N&gt; not much tho
[00:57] &lt;Trixx&gt; prolly like 1
[00:57] &lt;Trixx&gt; aswel
[00:57] &lt;ALL1N&gt; because u have to hit the 5 on the turn
[00:57] &lt;ALL1N&gt; u have to hit in the right order
[00:58] &lt;Trixx&gt; if it was 54 instead of 46
[00:58] &lt;Trixx&gt; it would be almost 2 i think
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; yes it would
[00:58] &lt;Trixx&gt; yeah, its worth more if the pot is bigger
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; a 3-run is almost the same as a 3-flush
[00:58] &lt;Trixx&gt; so u can call a turned gut
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; but the thing about backdoor draws is that they're bad when you're calling and good when you're betting
[00:58] &lt;Trixx&gt; you can gut into it if its a club tho
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; because if it turns a fold into a marginal call
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; then theres very little profit on the marginall call

[kurosh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, he has AK. Do you still want to raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I did. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif If he had AK, I figured there was a small chance my raise might lead him to fold right there and a better chance that he would then fold on turn if there was no A or K.

And I think that with a pair of 3s, my goal should be to make my opponent fold as soon as possible.

Are you suggesting that, if my opponent had AK, I'd protect the hand more effectively by waiting till the turn to raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is assuming he has AK. He's getting 9.33:1 on the flop call and people never ever fold in that situation. On the turn, he would be getting about 5:1 and he would be correct to fold. Thus, you don't want him to fold. You gain 1BB this way.

On the other hand, waiting until the turn and when he almost certainly will lead out, your equity increases dramatically and if he folds to the turn raise, you gain 1.5BB.

[JrJordan]

Reads? If he's not overly aggro then I fold to the flop 3-bet. He's not raising here for a free turn card because he's out of position. So he's either an overaggro player who's taking the pot or he has the goods. Chances are it's the latter.

[StellarWind]

Raising the flop is bad. You will usually lose two bets when you are wrong and gain only one bet when you are right. Hands that you are ahead of will outdraw you about 1/4 of the time. On that basis alone the raise is -EV.

But it gets worse. Your ability to get a hand like unimproved AK to pay off on the river may be directly connected to the flop. If you play call, call, you are apt to get a bet from him on the river one way or the other, especially with a potential flush draw for you to be bluffing. But if you raise and bet the turn he may checkfold the river unimproved.

It might be different if you knew this player well enough to read his hand based on his reaction to the flop raise.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; but the thing about backdoor draws is that they're bad when you're calling and good when you're betting

[/ QUOTE ]
I need to think more about it, but I think I love this quote.

[Wynton]

Now I think we're uncovering some more general problem I might have playing against overcards.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop is bad. You will usually lose two bets when you are wrong and gain only one bet when you are right. Hands that you are ahead of will outdraw you about 1/4 of the time. On that basis alone the raise is -EV.


But it gets worse. Your ability to get a hand like unimproved AK to pay off on the river may be directly connected to the flop. If you play call, call, you are apt to get a bet from him on the river one way or the other, especially with a potential flush draw for you to be bluffing. But if you raise and bet the turn he may checkfold the river unimproved.

It might be different if you knew this player well enough to read his hand based on his reaction to the flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this advice assume that the goal here is to keep my opponent in the hand, drawing to his presumed overcards? This seems kind of counter-intuitive to me. I've been figuring (perhaps just subconsciously) that I'm better off making my opponent fold his overcards as early as possible. Is this a mistaken approach?

I think that maybe the main problem with the hand is that I raised the flop, at least in part, for information. But when I got the information, I didn't trust it enough to fold. It's like I forgot why I raised the flop in the first place once I got to the river.

[stir]

You're getting good advice in this thread - better than anything I would offer, but I can't help but say rasing the flop with 4 th pair is gawdawful

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that maybe the main problem with the hand is that I raised the flop, at least in part, for information. But when I got the information, I didn't trust it enough to fold. It's like I forgot why I raised the flop in the first place once I got to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the heart of the issue. A case can be made for every action in isolation, but if you are raising the flop expecting AK worse hands to call, while better hands 3bet, then you have to fold the river.

I call the flop because I expect to make ~3BB (or more) off him when i hit a set on the turn, + backdoor outs. Additionally I hate folding to a flop 3bet because I find it encourages further flop bluff + semibluff action against me - but this is more prevalent at 10/20.

If he's lag enough to 3bet worse hands like AK on the flop you are better just calling down and letting him bet away 2.5 BB when he's behind.

Surf

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting good advice in this thread - better than anything I would offer, but I can't help but say rasing the flop with 4 th pair is gawdawful

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not defending the play by any means. But I don't think that as a general matter it's wrong to raise the flop with 4th pair headsup either. We can't totally discount the possibility that my opponent was reraising preflop with AK or AQ, and that he is testing me on the flop, can we?

[stir]

Of course sometimes he will have AK or AQ and is testing. I simply maintain that long term your scenario is not going to happen often enough for your raise here to be +EV.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting good advice in this thread - better than anything I would offer, but I can't help but say rasing the flop with 4 th pair is gawdawful

[/ QUOTE ]

the flop raise may not be a good one, but not for the reasons you think. When BB 3bets our hero's hijack raise, he will autobet nearly every single flop in an effort to continue his aggression. This includes hands like AK/AQ/AJ/KQ and any other overcard combination. It's *possible* he's reraising with a hand that has a 9 or 6 in it - but the only reasonable possibility there is 99. If he's doing this with hands like A9 or A6 then it is more likely that our hand is good on this flop and we should be more apt to call down(not call the 3bet, call the original bet), because villain's range is so much wider.

So, he's either behind to a higher PP, or he's ahead of overcards. The question as to whether the raise is good has more to do with how aggressive the villain is, and how likely he is to pay off with overcards after a flop raise... if he'll keep betting his unimproved overs, let him do so and hang himself... if he'll call down the whole way with AK, then raising is a good play because it charges him more. Raising is best if villain will realiably 3bet with better hands so we can fold and save ourself some bets when behind, but have him pay us off with overs when ahead.

Surf

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this advice assume that the goal here is to keep my opponent in the hand, drawing to his presumed overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's not folding the flop with two big overcards so it doesn't matter what you want.

Assuming he reaches the turn unimproved it is to your advantage to make him pay for another card instead of checkfolding. With only 4 BB in the pot after a proper flop call he does not have odds to draw and is losing significant money by playing on versus 33.

When he reaches the river unimproved it is 100% pure profit to make him pay 1 BB to show down the losing hand.

General concept: your opponent has a much better idea of who is ahead than you do. If he's looking at QQ he's going to assume he is ahead and he'll be right. If he's looking at AK and you play back strongly he'll guess he's behind and again he'll be right. This is the inherent implied odds problem with baby pair hands like 33 or A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

When your opponent has an information advantage you should seek to play the hand in a way that deprives him of choices. With position that means adopting a call-call-call line. Don't give him the opportunity to 3-bet his winners and fold his losers because he'll probably do the right thing. Make him put the same money in regardless of what he has.

[DMBFan23]

[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; but the thing about backdoor draws is that they're bad when you're calling and good when you're betting
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; because if it turns a fold into a marginal call
[00:58] &lt;ALL1N&gt; then theres very little profit on the marginall call


this is solid gold. thanks man

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does this advice assume that the goal here is to keep my opponent in the hand, drawing to his presumed overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's not folding the flop with two big overcards so it doesn't matter what you want.

Assuming he reaches the turn unimproved it is to your advantage to make him pay for another card instead of checkfolding. With only 4 BB in the pot after a proper flop call he does not have odds to draw and is losing significant money by playing on versus 33.

When he reaches the river unimproved it is 100% pure profit to make him pay 1 BB to show down the losing hand.

General concept: your opponent has a much better idea of who is ahead than you do. If he's looking at QQ he's going to assume he is ahead and he'll be right. If he's looking at AK and you play back strongly he'll guess he's behind and again he'll be right. This is the inherent implied odds problem with baby pair hands like 33 or A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

When your opponent has an information advantage you should seek to play the hand in a way that deprives him of choices. With position that means adopting a call-call-call line. Don't give him the opportunity to 3-bet his winners and fold his losers because he'll probably do the right thing. Make him put the same money in regardless of what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very helpful advice. Thanks.

[stir]

Surf,
I don't disagree with anything in your analysis, but most of what you say is dependent on raising because you have a read on your opponent. In this case, OP offered us no read and further more admits he was playing "loose"; something he normally would not, because he was at the end of his session.

In this specific scenario lacking a good villan read, IMO the flop raise can't be justified.