Hand vs. Frequent posting 2+2er

[party36master]

Opponent is 13.44/7.64/1.98 over 700 hands

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

I assume I still have to bet here, even though there are numerous hands that I'm behind, but I'm not sure. Do you think KT, JT, or another AT call me here?

River: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Would you go for a check-raise here?

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[Grease]

Fold PF.

C/c, c/c, bet.

Does anyone else think this is WA/WB?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is 13.44/7.64/1.98 over 700 hands
Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.
I assume I still have to bet here, even though there are numerous hands that I'm behind, but I'm not sure. Do you think KT, JT, or another AT call me here?


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think a player with those stats in MP with several players left to act behind him raises any of those hands PF?

[Webster]

HEY - those are my numbers LOL

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would normally fold this pre-flop against a TAG, or 3 bet a LP/LAG.
I was working on defending my SB more, but I misapplied the concept because a raise from MP1 was too early to think about this.

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is 13.44/7.64/1.98 over 700 hands
Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.
I assume I still have to bet here, even though there are numerous hands that I'm behind, but I'm not sure. Do you think KT, JT, or another AT call me here?


[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think a player with those stats in MP with several players left to act behind him raises any of those hands PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

ATs I would assume is a given.
JT no.
KTs I'm not sure, I would assume it depends on the table.

I don't remember the rest of the table right now, but I would normally raise ATs, ATo, KTs from MP1, limp w/JTs or KTo unless the table is tight, in which case I'd raise them.
But I'm 21%/12%, so a little different...

[Grease]

OK, it pretty much comes down to a lot of factors, both PF and post-flop which would dissuade you from playing your hand.

1)You're out of position, and you have the BB left to act behind you, which could further increase your quandry and leave you scratching your head.

2)Your odds aren't that great. You're the SB, you don't have nearly enough incentive to play here.

3)Your opponent is TAG and a frequent poster, so we can assume he's at least good if not nasty. He will not pay off, but he will be trying to make you do that. You won't get paid off well when you spike an A on his KK-TT, and he will destroy you when you are up against his AJ-AK.

To expand upon my original post: I think c/c, c/c, bet is the only way to play against this particular opponent, because he will push back if he has you beaten, or fold if he doesn't.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is 13.44/7.64/1.98

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess that would be "ABC" poker.

Anyway, on the turn you're now behind the majority of this player's preflop raising range. I doubt if 99 or worse call the flop check/raise. So you're looking at TT-AA, AJ-AK, KQ, KJ/KTs/QJs possibly seems like a reasonable range. Without breaking down the math it seems you're behind most of the time. You're only ahead of KJ and KTs. And even then he'll have a flush redraw at times...4 outs to chop...K outs...etc.

But the bigger thing is...I don't think this opponent raises without a Q or better here.

So if you bet I think you should fold to the raise.

Check/folding actually seems like an option as well because I'd question whether KT or KJ bet the turn.

Basically, you're hand is no where near as strong as it appears at first glance.

I think you should fold preflop.

I think the flop check/raise sucks too, especially since I think you completely misread what him calling the check/raise means.

[jgorham]

FWIW, I would raise this turn with any hand I was planning on calling a river bet, with the intentions of taking a free showdown (folding to a 3bet). The straight potential opens up a lot of fold equity on this raise, and also protects us from 3bets with worse hands.

[chief444]

Yes, but are you a 13/7.5/&lt;2 player?

The postflop aggression number is pretty low for playing ridiculously tight preflop.

[jgorham]

Fold PF.

On the flop, I think it is pretty safe to assume your opponent knows who you are (has a decent read on you), so I think a checkraise is a pretty bad play. It is going to make him fold all the hands you beat, and wait for a more expensive street to pop you with his better hands. In spots like these it is more effective to check/call most of the way down - in this specific hand I would check/call, check/call, check/raise.

The reason for the checkraise on the river, is that he will probably bet for value any hand that he would call with on that board.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I was working on defending my SB more, but I misapplied the concept because a raise from MP1 was too early to think about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, defending your SB? I don't know, I don't get carried away with this at all. And, the thing is, if you're going to do this I think you should be three-betting. Giving the BB a cheap look is probaably a mistake.

But, yes, this is a bad spot not as much because the raiser was in MP1 but this raiser was in MP1.

[Entity]

If you're playing you should be 3-betting. Defending your SB by coldcalling is a fairly significant error, and folding is better than calling against a very tight 2+2er opening from MP1.

Rob

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
And, the thing is, if you're going to do this I think you should be three-betting. Giving the BB a cheap look is probably a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second. I've come to think that being first to call a raise in the SB is almost as bad as being first to call a raise in any other position.

[chief444]

Thoughts on postflop...particularly the turn?

[goodguy_1]

muck preflop

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on postflop...particularly the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

He should fold to the turn raise and checkraise the river. I think the flop checkraise kinda sucks too. Actually, really sucks.

[Grease]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop checkraise kinda sucks too. Actually, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on postflop...particularly the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we've got 2 dirty outs with the two remaining Tens.

There's still a chance that 2+2er was raising a pair under the board PF so bet/fold to a raise seems like a good line. The pot is too small and Villian's hand range is too narrow when he calls the flop and raises the turn to continue.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on postflop...particularly the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

He should fold to the turn raise and checkraise the river. I think the flop checkraise kinda sucks too. Actually, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kinda cool though -- I haven't seen a "misplayed on every street" hand in a while.

[chief444]

Thanks. Just making sure I wasn't the only one who thought all four streets were badly misplayed. I do think the river is somewhat close though. But check/raise was my first thought since it seems very likely he's against a straight.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Just making sure I wasn't the only one who thought all four streets were badly misplayed. I do think the river is somewhat close though. But check/raise was my first thought since it seems very likely he's against a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's most likely against a straight but not definitely; it's close enough that I'd checkraise and call a 3-bet rather than bet-3bet, since calling a cap here sucks.

[chief444]

Agreed.

[Jonny Melon]

[ QUOTE ]
I've come to think that being first to call a raise in the SB is almost as bad as being first to call a raise in any other position.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the 3/6 blind structure, I'd argue that it's worse. I'd much rather cold call with position, than cold call in worse position w/ 1/6 invested. But I wouldn't CC ATo here from any position, so I suppose it's moot.

[mtdoak]

I thought you asked me not to post this hand /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[colgin]

Fold pre-flop. I don't think I would hardly ever make this call out of the SB where the SB is 1/3 of a small bet, but against a rock it is really bad.

The rest looks fine. I am not sure your opponent is aggressive enough to warrant trying to C/R the river. He mayhave been raising the turnfor a "free" showdown. Don't give it to him.

[mtdoak]

FWIW, the hand was against me....my numbers are closer to 17/9/2

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, the hand was against me....my numbers are closer to 17/9/2

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure they are. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm curious what you had although I'm pretty certain it's AQ or KQ and you would have bet and paid a river raise off...yes?

How's Motor City?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
He mayhave been raising the turnfor a "free" showdown. Don't give it to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of many hands that raise this turn that wouldn't bet the river for value.

[mtdoak]

i had QQ....i was mucking the turn unimproved. Things are going ok here in detroit, except for the company that says 'hey, you want a job? Can you start tomorrow?' and then later that day 'oh, nevermind'

[Mike Gallo]

Would you go for a check-raise here?

I would not have made it to the river.

Why would you check raise? You majorly sucked out and to add insult to injury you felt the need to check raise.

Do you really think that this post served any purpose othen then a self serving post to show you know how to suck out by hitting a 5 outer.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
I was working on defending my SB more

[/ QUOTE ]

With the blind structure what it is at party 3/6, this is one of the least important aspects of the game. If it is ever close, I have no problem saying goodbye to my $1 and getting excited about having the Button next hand.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
With the blind structure what it is at party 3/6, this is one of the least important aspects of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
NO! The blind structure affects the way we play - not it's relative importance to other poker concepts.

[ QUOTE ]
If it is ever close, I have no problem saying goodbye to my $1 and getting excited about having the Button next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
As long as you are content to "shy-away" from difficult decisions at the poker table you will never reach your full potential as a player.

[johnd192]

Do not go for a c/r. Bet out for best value.
AQs or QQ are possible holdings based on the action listed.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]


It's kinda cool though -- I haven't seen a "misplayed on every street" hand in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! OMG!

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
it's close enough that I'd checkraise and call a 3-bet rather than bet-3bet, since calling a cap here sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Good stuff that I've not put much thought in before.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
As long as you are content to "shy-away" from difficult decisions at the poker table you will never reach your full potential as a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You da man crunchy!

I like this thread.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
NO! The blind structure affects the way we play - not it's relative importance to other poker concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and at 3/6 when faced with a steal in the SB, we are getting 2:1 on our call as opposed to 4:1 in a typical blind structure. This is a HUGE difference and makes many more hands unplayable in this situation. That was what I was getting at, probably not said very well. My main point, is the OP could probably more profitably spend his time working on areas of his game.

[ QUOTE ]
As long as you are content to "shy-away" from difficult decisions at the poker table you will never reach your full potential as a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement. However, I have many more important things to work on than defending my SB at 3/6 or even 5/10. I will focus on this a lot more if, and when, I ever get to 15/30.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Do not go for a c/r. Bet out for best value.
AQs or QQ are possible holdings based on the action listed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling me that AQ or QQ check behind on this river? Or that they won't get curious enough that they have to pay off a checkraise?

Rob

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this statement. However, I have many more important things to work on than defending my SB at 3/6 or even 5/10. I will focus on this a lot more if, and when, I ever get to 15/30.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to disagree that for most of us we need to prioritize our development. However, if you choose to ignore development in some areas until you reach a level where the demand for those skills is neccessary - you are going to fail when you reach that level.

You've already given the perfect example - the 15/30 game. If you choose to not work on concepts like blind stealing/defense and short-handed play until you start playing 15/30 - then you're going to have a tough time for awhile at that level where these concepts are paramount. My advice is that it's best to spread the wealth a little bit and at least devote a "close-to-equivilant" amount of time/effort to all areas of your game.

Even though something like SB defense may seem unimportant now - the truth is, as exemplified in this post, that it's not irrelevant. Furthermore, putting off study/practice is only going to leave you behind the 8-ball when you reach a level where this stuff matters.

[Nate tha' Great]

This is a really awful small blind defense in a game with a 1/3 blind structure.

[BigEndian]

If you're going to defend with ATo, 3-bet. Actually, you should 3-bet damn near anything you want to defend with. Pull out the peen and start waving.

- Jim

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you go for a check-raise here?

I would not have made it to the river.

Why would you check raise? You majorly sucked out and to add insult to injury you felt the need to check raise.

Do you really think that this post served any purpose othen then a self serving post to show you know how to suck out by hitting a 5 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I wanted a view on my turn bet.

I'm not sure why you think that being told I screwed up every street by some of the best posters in the forum is self-serving.

[party36master]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought you asked me not to post this hand /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I wasn't feeling comfortable w/the turn bet, and wanted a view.
Or Pre-flop really.

Didn't expect that people would hate the check-raise.