QJo isolation hand

[chief444]

Unknown UTG poster. Hero raises with QJ with the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif from LP. BB and UTG call.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

BB checks, UTG bets, hero calls, BB folds.

Turn is an offsuit 9.

UTG bets, hero calls.

Thoughts?

[crunchy1]

Why no turn raise? I think you missed a bet.

[stillbr]

looks fine to me...I may raise any river card if utg is a poster.

[QTip]

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Why no turn raise? I think you missed a bet.

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I don't get it.

[crunchy1]

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Why no turn raise? I think you missed a bet.

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I don't get it.

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I'm just here to confuse you all.

... I misread the OP and thought chief was holding the QJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif for the 2nd nut flush. My mistake.

So now my question is... What's your plan on the river?

[chief444]

FWIW, this is a hand I reviewed for someone else and I just found this one somewhat interesting. My first thought was that raising is an option to consider on the flop or the turn. Part of my thinking involves the fact that it's against a UTG poster. To me the fact that someone posted UTG makes the likelihood that he's on a pure bluff or betting the K/Q of hearts here somewhat higher. And if he's not betting a draw then it makes it more likely our outs are clean.

[molawn2mo]

looks fine. raising the turn would be capricious unless there is fold equity in play here, but i wouldn't think so. so... with 3rd nut flush draw plus nut str8 draw (15 outs) call seems the way to go.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, this is a hand I reviewed for someone else and I just found this one somewhat interesting. My first thought was that raising is an option to consider on the flop or the turn. Part of my thinking involves the fact that it's against a UTG poster. To me the fact that someone posted UTG makes the likelihood that he's on a pure bluff or betting the K/Q of hearts here somewhat higher. And if he's not betting a draw then it makes it more likely our outs are clean.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me say this though:

I remember seeing a couple of threads in the past where someone said something like "UTG posted so he's a retard". This is bad for business...stereotyping someone's postflop play based on where they post. There is something in SSHE that seems to indicate to post for image, and I know several people that have misunderstood that, and I used to be one of them. I was posting anywhere, including UTG until probably 4 months. If someone were to make an assumption about my postflop play at that point, they would have made a serious mistake.

[jgorham]

I would raise this flop for a free card. With the A on board, it is going to be very hard for your opponents to either 3bet you or lead into you on the turn.

Edit: I would change my plan and go ahead and bet on the turn after the 9 hits. Too lazy to do math this early in the morning, but you only need a small % of fold equity to make a bet here correct (combined with your true equity), and against one opponent I think you have it.

[crunchy1]

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I remember seeing a couple of threads in the past where someone said something like "UTG posted so he's a retard". This is bad for business...stereotyping someone's postflop play based on where they post.

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I think you're dead-on here but, I think the bigger picture is sterotyping people based on too little information - which is basically what you're talking about when someone posts in EP.

So they come into the game and post in EP. Or open-limp in the CO/Button. Or open-check their LP post. What does this tell you about them? Nothing! If you already have stats on them then you already know how they play. If you had no stats on them previous to observing one of these "donk-type-moves" then the reality is: you still have no information on them. Maybe they misclicked in their post. Maybe they mis-read the position of the button and clicked "auto-post blind" when they should've waited a hand.

I don't think that we're overly stereotypical on this board but, on occassion we do make assumptions that are probably based on too little information.

[chief444]

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To me the fact that someone posted UTG makes the likelihood that he's on a pure bluff or betting the K/Q of hearts here somewhat higher.

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So you're disagreeing with this statement?

[QTip]

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would change my plan and go ahead and bet on the turn after the 9 hits

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The turn was bet by villain. Do you mean *raise* the turn?

[QTip]

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To me the fact that someone posted UTG makes the likelihood that he's on a pure bluff or betting the K/Q of hearts here somewhat higher.

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So you're disagreeing with this statement?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think you're saying that there are more 1 heart hand combinations than 2 heart cominations (especially given all the hearts you're staring at, and that I agree with.

However, *a pure bluff* I don't see how we can say this without some knowledge of the player, and I was saying that if we're getting this by the simple fact that he posted UTG, this isn't good.

However, looking over your statement again, I see this isn't what you were saying.

[jgorham]

Sorry that was a bit confusing. What I meant was "if he checks to me on the turn after I raise the flop, I would bet." A raise on the turn here (without a raise on the flop) is a bad play, as there is virtually 0 fold equity against an unknown.

[jjacky]

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would change my plan and go ahead and bet on the turn after the 9 hits

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The turn was bet by villain. Do you mean *raise* the turn?

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i guess he ment raise and i agree with his statements. a flop raise for a free card looks fine.
i like a raise on the turn too because he might be bluffing with the best hand or he might throw away a weak ace. this play would look like a slow play of a flush or set. the problem is, that he wont throw away a K/images/graemlins/heart.gif or Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif and at least the first one would be the best hand. but i think to pros outweight the cons.

*edit*
i didn`t understand jgorham's post correctly, but i still agree with the statement he didn't make /images/graemlins/wink.gif

anyway, i like a raise on the turn in the given situation and i like a bet on the turn after a raise on the flop (but only because we found some more outs on the turn and we don't need as much fold equity as if we would have found a blanc on the turn).

[chief444]

Yeah...I don't think I was reading too much into the post. Just saying that against anyone there's always some chance they're bluffing or betting a draw and it seems this chance is a little higher given the post. That's all. I don't disagree with your point though. When I meet you at the Casino Saturday you'll very likely see me not only post UTG but also live straddle. The chances I'm playing worse than normal postflop are somewhat higher. /images/graemlins/wink.gif But I won't be playing nearly as badly as most at the table will probably assume. So we're both right. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[QTip]

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Yeah...I don't think I was reading too much into the post. Just saying that against anyone there's always some chance they're bluffing or betting a draw and it seems this chance is a little higher given the post. That's all. I don't disagree with your point though. When I meet you at the Casino Saturday you'll very likely see me not only post UTG but also live straddle. The chances I'm playing worse than normal postflop are somewhat higher. /images/graemlins/wink.gif But I won't be playing nearly as badly as most at the table will probably assume. So we're both right. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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If you live straddle, I'll throw my cards at you! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[thejameser]

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he might be bluffing with the best hand

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i didn't know the betting the best hand was a bluff. i assume you mean he is trying to represent the made flush. you know what they say about assuming things. i call/fold unimproved.

[jjacky]

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he might be bluffing with the best hand

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i didn't know the betting the best hand was a bluff. i assume you mean he is trying to represent the made flush. you know what they say about assuming things. i call/fold unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

a bet or raise with the best hand can very well be a bluff. according to HEFAP a bluff is "a bet with a hand you do not think is the best hand". if villain had a king high, he bet for a bluff with the best hand.