I have JJ, and I'm lost, as usual

[Nick C]

I see I now have a green BB/hand number for JJ. I must've won a 1/2 6-max or NL 25 hand with it or something. It's still the only pocket pair I'm losing money with.

I could give you PT stats for my opponents, but I was new to the table, and I didn't know much about them at the time. So let's call them 3/6 unknowns.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font> <font color="#0000FF">(Oh, crud. I guess I probably need a set.)</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls.

<font color="#0000FF">I raised because MP1 could just have TT, and I didn't really want BB hanging around with over(s) in that case, if I could help it (probably I couldn't). Actually, if MP1 just had AK (somewhat doubtful, I thought), I didn't really want BB hanging around with a worse pocket pair for just one bet either (but, again, there's probably not much I could do about it anyway). As you may have gathered, I have doubts about this raise being for value, in terms of equity. Anyway, though, as you can see, BB did fold.</font>

Turn: (8.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

<font color="#0000FF">Well, there's very little chance I have the best hand now. I guess I'll bet anyway and hope MP1 has KK/QQ and no hearts and will dump it. (I considered just giving up here, by the way.)</font>

River: (10.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

<font color="#0000FF">And here I did give up. Should I have fired one last time, in the hopes of folding out KK/QQ and a missed flush draw?</font>

Final Pot: 10.16 BB

I'm not really sure about any of the postflop streets, so all comments are welcome.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I would bet the river. Unknowns like to be stupid, so he could have alot of hands that you beat. I think he would have pointed out that he had an ace on the turn. And if he had qq or kk he would have let you know on the flop. So I think there is value in betting the river.

[shant]

I really don't see any other way to play this. I don't see value in betting the river.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river. Unknowns like to be stupid, so he could have alot of hands that you beat. I think he would have pointed out that he had an ace on the turn. And if he had qq or kk he would have let you know on the flop. So I think there is value in betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the optimism!

I'm pretty sure a river bet is not for value, though. However, it might be worth making one, mainly as a bluff, but with some small potential that it's actually a value bet added in.

Party 3/6 players tend to have preflop 3-betting and capping standards that are approximately as tight as mine.

They also tend (in my opinion) to figure those standards are what their preflop 3-bets and caps represent to their TAG opponents, such as me.

So I'm not sure I would have heard any more from KK/QQ on the flop.

[Brash620]

Looks good until the river. I think you should bet it. Mp1 hasn't showed much strength after the flop. He lead out yes, but that seems like a standard line considering he capped preflop. I personaly would expect a three-bet with K,K or Q,Q on a flop like this. MP could also have pair an ace on the turn but that seems unlikely since he didn't bet or raise the turn.

[shant]

I don't understand what hand range the people who are saying bet the river are putting the opponent on. Can you guys explain the river bet further than "He doesn't have KK or QQ."

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what hand range the people who are saying bet the river are putting the opponent on. Can you guys explain the river bet further than "He doesn't have KK or QQ."

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I think he will have KK/QQ a very high percentage of the time here.

One of the things I'm wondering is if it's worth firing again anyway.

Will he call with something worse or (more importantly) fold KxK/images/graemlins/heart.gif/QxQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif often enough?

[aK13]

I'd pin this guy explicitly on QQ.

He capped preflop, and you still raised him on the flop. I think he's scared you have KK/AA.

[Malachii]

I think this looks pretty good. A river bet is just throwing a big bet away, IMO.

I guess the only thing I'm unsure of is the turn. That ace is a really bad card for you, because any hand he could logically have capped with preflop has you beat at this point. What value is there in betting the turn here?

[SavageMiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what hand range the people who are saying bet the river are putting the opponent on. Can you guys explain the river bet further than "He doesn't have KK or QQ."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet the river, but not because I think I've got the best hand. I'm pretty sure I lose if it goes check-check, but I'm also pretty sure he hasn't got an ace. One more bet gives him the opportunity to fold or convince himself I've got one.

[chief444]

I highly doubt if QQ folds to a river bet getting 11:1. I think you played it fine.

99/TT or another JJ is possible also but QQ seems more likely given the preflop cap assuming a typical opponent.

[chesspain]

You played the hand just fine. As you already know, betting the river in hopes of getting either QQ/KK to fold or a very unlikely worse hand to call would just be spewing. Something that does concern me is the following:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="#0000FF">I raised because MP1 could just have TT, and I didn't really want BB hanging around with over(s) in that case, if I could help it (probably I couldn't). Actually, if MP1 just had AK (somewhat doubtful, I thought), I didn't really want BB hanging around with a worse pocket pair for just one bet either (but, again, there's probably not much I could do about it anyway). As you may have gathered, I have doubts about this raise being for value, in terms of equity. Anyway, though, as you can see, BB did fold.</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

The doubts expressed in the above sounds like the logic of a man who hasn't been winning with JJ. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Even though you may be behind MP1, you simply cannot allow BB to come along for only one bet, since there are a number of hands he could have besides for a PP that could end up beating you.

[Nick C]

Thanks for the responses. They were helpful.

MP1 had Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif and took the pot.

After 97 hands, his stats are now 9/6/3.5. So unless he's had a bad run of cards over that relatively small stretch, it looks like he's pretty tight.

In any event, though, I do think preflop 3-bets and caps from 3/6 unknowns are generally something to take seriously.

[molawn2mo]

Forgive me.... but for those of you saying bet the river,
blehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Sorry, just blew my lunch.

What better hand are you folding out, here? If Villain called the turn, he must call the river (unless he is a retard, of course). So, you have virtually no fold equity. So then, you must feel that you have best hand. Joking, right?

[jskills]

I like every street.

He could only call the turn because he's got KK, QQ, TT. If it's AK or AA I think we'd see a raise here, but in the even he's setting you up for a river C/R by only calling, you river check is nice to me.

NH.

BTW I often feel lost with JJ, especially flopping overcards where I'm the only one raising preflop.

[Willluck]

looks good. KK-TT. Maybe check the turn and then if he has KK or QQ it would be nice if he checked the river to you and you can get a cheaper showdown.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]

MP1 had Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif and took the pot.

In any event, though, I do think preflop 3-bets and caps from 3/6 unknowns are generally something to take seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

God I rule =).

[akvsaq]

Nick, I would have played it exactly the same way you did. I definitely would not think about giving up on the turn though. Yes, I would think that I'm beat if I get called on the turn, but I think you should stay in the drivers seat. He didn't show much aggression postflop except for betting out the flop. No way you should bet the river. He will call with KK, QQ ,or any better hand than yours. If he was able to call the turn, he will most likely call the river!

[Bluffoon]

I think you played this fine. I also dont think a river bet has any value. No higher pocket pair or Ace is going to fold here and I can't think of a hand that would call that you can beat never mind beat greater than 55% of the time.