I got ripped for this, was I out of line.

[lil feller]

Online 5/10

The Cast:

UTG is a ABC type TAG. He reads hands, plays accordingly, but has no imagination, he's just solid.

C/O is your typical maniac, in every sense of the word. I've seen PF 3bets w/ 79o, and river bluff raises with hands that didn't even flop a draw. The blinds are a bit weak/tight.

UTG raises. C/O 3 bets. I cold-cap w/ 99. SB mucks, BB calls, UTG calls.

The rest of the hand really doesn't matter, its preflop that i'm interested in. I figured the UTG raise to be your standard TAG raising hands. AJ-AK, KQ, or TT-AA. The 3 bet could be anything. I thought my hand had too much value to fold, and capping gave me a chance to potentially isolate the maniac. Am I off base here? Should I have folded, or just called?

lf

[ihardlyknowher]

I say cap it up. If CO is as crazy as you say, there is a chance he has 2 undercards. Essentially, you might be getting 2:1 on a coinflip. Also, you will pretty easily be able to tell if UTG has you beat. If 2 or more overcards flop, I might even check/call the maniac all the way down (obviously not if UTG is sticking around).

[sy_or_bust]

You aren't isolating anyone with this raise. UTG almost always has a better hand, and you're often dominated. I'm not a big fan of playing in this pot, especially since any flop can play out "UTG bets, CO raises" and you're unhappy already.

[imported_leader]

Basic Poker stove results. I'll let you judge for yourself because I have to go to sleep.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.0912 % 39.64% 00.45% { TT+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 18.1083 % 17.57% 00.54% { random }
Hand 3: 41.8005 % 41.61% 00.19% { 99 }

[Moneyline]

Hmmm... creative play, and I like your thought process here, but I still think folding is the better play. After the cap, the tight player will still call with any pair, as he/she has enough implied odds to try to flop a set. AK isn't going anywhere either, and two big suited cards may stick around as well. On the flop, the pot will be so big that you'll have a bitch of a time getting the solid player to fold any sort of a hand or draw.

***However, if you've noticed the UTG raiser has a tendency to fold strong hands when there is a lot of action preflop, then I think you made a great play by raising. That said, I wouldn't make this raise unless I knew for sure UTG was too tight in these situations.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
Basic Poker stove results. I'll let you judge for yourself because I have to go to sleep.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.0912 % 39.64% 00.45% { TT+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 18.1083 % 17.57% 00.54% { random }
Hand 3: 41.8005 % 41.61% 00.19% { 99 }

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't tell the story though. All overcards are very scary, CO will bet unpredictably, and UTG will have at least 2 overs. This postflop will be very difficult to play, and not necessarily profitable in many situations, IMO.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
any flop can play out "UTG bets, CO raises" and you're unhappy already.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we cap and UTG leads, do we have an easy fold?

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basic Poker stove results. I'll let you judge for yourself because I have to go to sleep.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.0912 % 39.64% 00.45% { TT+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 18.1083 % 17.57% 00.54% { random }
Hand 3: 41.8005 % 41.61% 00.19% { 99 }

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't tell the story though. All overcards are very scary, CO will bet unpredictably, and UTG will have at least 2 overs. This postflop will be very difficult to play, and not necessarily profitable in many situations, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, he may fold the following to a PF cap: KQo, ATs, AJo. I agree the numbers aren't the whole story.

[Lurkmaster Flex]

This is close either way, you shouldn't get ripped for it. Too many variables to decide whether it's solidly +EV or not, but if it isn't it isnt real bad.

[brick]

I think you got ripped for it because you either turned or rivered a 9.
Did you?

[aK13]

If UTG is a solid thinking player, I think he is also very capable of lightening his raising standards, knowing that CO will 3 bet and likely shove everyone else out of the pot, even out of position. Knowing how many players total there are, and the quality of the ones in between would be helpful for this assumption, though. With the combined chance of maybe knocking this player out, I think capping is a great play.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I like this. You have solid reads on both players, that makes post flop so much easier. You have a good reason for what you did preflop. If you sucked out on the turn it might not have been so bad, maybe you had implied odds with a wackjob CO in there. Whatever happened, I like the start of this hand.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG is a solid thinking player, I think he is also very capable of lightening his raising standards, knowing that CO will 3 bet and likely shove everyone else out of the pot,

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say he was a thinker, I just said he was ABC solid. He isn't adjust preflop at all.

lf

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If UTG is a solid thinking player, I think he is also very capable of lightening his raising standards, knowing that CO will 3 bet and likely shove everyone else out of the pot,

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say he was a thinker, I just said he was ABC solid. He isn't adjust preflop at all.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

I would assume solid TAG ABC players would do so. Meh.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume solid TAG ABC players would do so. Meh

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally a safe assumption, but he's just by the book, no creativity, especially preflop

lf

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
If we cap and UTG leads, do we have an easy fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming no set/no draw, I'd say absolutely.

lf

[lil feller]

UTG won't lead into the cap unless I was beat preflop, in which case its an easy fold. If UTG checks and C/O bets, i'm raising and showing this hand down if UTG gets out of the way.

lf

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you got ripped for it because you either turned or rivered a 9.
Did you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you like to know...

We miss you up north, and don't worry, i'll post results later.

lf

[chief444]

This is perfectly fine.

[lil feller]

Just in case you were curious.

Flop was
9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG leads, C/O raises, I 3 bet and UTG caps. We all call.

Turn was

8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG leads c/o calls, I raise, he 3bets c/o folds and I cap

River:

7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

He checks, I bet, and he calls. It was obvious by the turn that he started with a big pair, most likely AA, and I felt the river was an easy value bet.

Thanks for all the input. I normally post in mid-high, but i've been playing less B&M and more online lately, so I hope its ok if I crash your forum /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

lf

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
I felt the river was an easy value bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Easiest value bet ever.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

That happens all the time, he ia just a baby for complaing about his aces being cracked.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
That happens all the time, he ia just a baby for complaing about his aces being cracked.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was actually quite amusing. I just smiled inside and secretly wondered, which was worse. Putting in one extra small bet preflop, or about 4 extra big bets post flop with only one pair...?

He should buy his Aces a diamond ring...

lf

[DeuceKicker]

I like your reads. Much better than just listing stats.

One little nit-pick, though. If you're him holding AA, and assuming he has some read on you, how many bets do you put in? Can he really put you on anything other than a high pocket pair or maybe AKs/AQs? Your actions on the flop seem to reinforce this read.

I'm pretty sure I'd bet/3bet/call the flop and turn as well. The only reason I wouldn't lead out the river is because the flush draw got there, and it's possible you were being very aggressive with a flush draw.

[lil feller]

If i'm in his position, the turn raise starts to worry me.
With C/O still in there, he has to know, that I know, that he isn't going to win this pot with out showing down. He also has to know that I know that he has a big pair. I might go nuts w/ AKs on a flop like that, only because there is a 3rd player. I would have certainly figured out, however, that my pair outs are no good after the capped flop, and would just call w/ my flush draw on the turn. The turn raise says "I can beat 2 aces". Thats when i'd slow down.

lf