Loose passive games - call or raise?

[Mano]

I often find myself in loose passive games in middle to late position with good, but not great starting hands and often question weather it is better to just limp along after several others have already limped and see what to do on the flop, or raise what may likely be the best hand. I was hoping some of you could comment on some of how you would play the following hands in middle or late position, assuming at least 2 or 3 limpers already in and loose passive blinds:

1) AJ s/o
2) AQ s/o
3) KQ s/o
4) medium pp (8-J)
5) small pp (2-7)
5) KJ s/o

If any of you would care to comment on any of these starting hands I would be interested in how you would play them. Thanks.

[Pot-A]

I usually categorize these games more than "loose passive". The question is - how apt are your opponents to lay down a bad hand on the flop?

If I'm in a game where people take any two cards to the flop but then are willing to lay down hands that don't flop well, I tend to play more aggressively pre-flop. I'll raise all the suited hands you list, as well as the pocket pairs if I think I'll have at least 5 callers. The off-suit hands are more problematic. If I don't think I can drive anybody out I'll save that extra bet until I see the flop.

The second type of game is characterized by opponents who call to the flop and then keep calling with gut-shots and medium pairs. This is the most profitable game you can find.

Recall that they're making less of a mistake mathmatically if they make a loose call when the pot is large. Since I want my opponents to make big mistakes, I don't want a giant pot when I have top pair with best kicker. In this type of game I wouldn't raise with any of the hands you've listed. Even the big suited hands that play well in large pots don't hit the flop very often. Save your agression for post-flop when you hit, since you need a reasonably strong hand to survive to the river. The value you receive from this type of game is the money you make after the flop when your opponents are drawing slim or dead and don't realize it.

Of course, you always raise with a really strong hand like AA, since it wins often enough to be profitable even if everyone calls.

[Noo Yawk]

1) Raise
2) Raise
3) call offsuit, raise suited
4) Raise
5) Fold offsuit, call or raise suited

[Ed Miller]

Generally, I would raise with all the suited hands you listed and limp with the offsuit hands (except AQo with two limpers in front, which I would raise). Raise with big pairs and limp with small pairs.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
That's interesting... you'd raise the suited and limp with offsuit?

I've seen other posters reccomend exactly the opposite in other posts. Limp with suited because you are trying for the flush... raise with the unsuited because you are playing them as overpairs.

Have I got a misconception going?

Sincerely,
AA

[Dr.Kimble]

In Loose passive games I prefer to see the Flop so cheap we possible /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Ed Miller]

I've seen other posters reccomend exactly the opposite in other posts. Limp with suited because you are trying for the flush... raise with the unsuited because you are playing them as overpairs. Have I got a misconception going?

I think you are confusing two different situations. If you are first in from EP, you should be inclined to raise big offsuit cards a) for value, and b) to discourage other players from entering the pot to keep it shorthanded. If instead your big cards are suited, then raising is fine... but this time you have a much bigger hand, and you wouldn't mind seeing many players in for several bets. Thus, it is sometimes a good idea to limp (generally with the intention of reraising) with these hands.

The situation in question, however, is much different. You are in LP and there are already several limpers to you. In this case, you already have a multiway pot, and there is no chance that raising will change that. Thus, you should raise your big suited cards basically 100% of the time... you will be getting a large amount of equity for your raise... and failing to raise here is a big mistake. With the offsuit cards... you should be more inclined to limp with them for several reasons. First, your hand isn't nearly as strong now... so you won't get nearly as much equity from the raise as you would have before. Second, if you build a big pot preflop, it becomes difficult to protect a top pair with a single bet. Remember that your money in poker comes from the mistakes that your opponents make. When your loose opponents limp in, they have made a mistake. You double that mistake by raising. But many times this preflop mistake is a relatively small one, so even when doubled they aren't losing that much money. If you can manipulate the same opponent to make a much larger mistake postflop (i.e. calling with a 3-outter in an unraised pot) then you will make more money from him in the longrun.

[bernie]

i agree with most of your reply except this...

"you will be getting a large amount of equity for your raise... and failing to raise here is a big mistake"

many times youre raising to tie players to the pot if you hit your hand. or to build the pot to pad the pot odds to call should you hit a draw...

that said, there is a concept that if you dont need to raise here to tie them to the pot, meaning theyd chase anyway, you dont need to raise here for this purpose...youll collect anyway and theyll make mistakes on the flop play should a situation develop where you can cut odds there...

however, i like raising here anyway. primarily because it widens my range of hands i could be raising with preflop. sometimes, ill even raise the offsuit hands here, though your right, your not getting the pot shorthanded. and if you hit your hand a little, youre going to have to wait for the turn to try and get the chasers to actually be close to making a mistake in chasing....

if youre going to give a little during a hand, preflop is where to do it. because you can make up for it later in the hand. which is why i think, for the most part, mistakes later in the hand, once your in the hand, can be more costly. you have lesser time to make up for what you gave in a given bet round...not sure i said all that right...hope ya get the gist of it..

cya...

b

[SoBeDude]

You bring up an excellent distinction in game descriptions.

My regular game has loose preflop conditions where 4-6 people regularly see the flop.

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

They ignore pot odds with a four-flush or open-ended straight draw and will call you down to the river.

Also, they tend to be callers unless they have a made hand. And they also love to sandbag when they do have it. It is very tough to put most of them on a hand.

Suggestions how to play this table?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[sucka]

Sounds like you do have alot of 'chasers' in your game. When/where do you guys play? Have an extra seat? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

This has been an interesting thread - it solidfied some thoughts for me and made me double think a few others...

Here's my general idea of how you might want to play in this game - which btw, is similar to many LL B&M games that I play in.

If an early pre-flop raise will limit the field then do so with your big pairs, unsuited big cards (AK, AQ, KQ, etc..). You want to push out some players behind you and get a shorthanded pot going where your top pair good kicker will hold up for you - that's what you are shooting for here. AKo is a great hand - shorthanded or in a family pot - but you are going to win with it more when you have less players. Raise it up and try to get it that way.

If the pots are generally unraised pre-flop you can limp alot more with hands like Axs, Kxs and often times Qxs from nearly any position. Occasionally you'll get an early or middle position raiser that will clear the table and you'll be 2 or 3 handed with a holding that prefers as many in as possible - but that's how it goes. When you can sneak in to these multi-way pots with hands that can make monsters in the loose passive games you have to do so.

In late position, follow the advice given in a few of the above posts. When you hold big suited connectors those hands can play well in large or small pots - so you often want to raise those up regardless of how many people are playing. I often times will raise hands like QJs and JTs when there is a family or near-family pot going when im late. I have position and have a hand that loves a ton of action. I look at it as though I'm putting in one extra small bet to get 5,6,7 or however many back should I spike a hand. It's a small investment for a possible large return. If you miss completely here and the flop is getting a ton of action - ie; 2 or 3 bets to you, then you cut your losses and wait for the next opportunity.

Also, if you game is really loose-passive preflop you can start limping with 1 or 2 gapper suited connectors (T9s, QTs, J9s, etc...) as these hands can make potential monsters as well.

Of course you have to continue to effectively check-raise and semi-bluff here - especially in situations on the flop and turn where you can use these (with position) to get more bets into the pot or clear the field by making other players call 2 or 3 bets cold.

I rarely see LL players effectively check raise. Almost every time someone checkraises at a LL table someone says something like, "Ah, trying to get a free card huh?" The strategic check-raise and semi-bluff raise are your friends - use them. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Just for the record - I have nary to find a LL player who will EVER laydown 4 flush or 4 to an open ender - even if it's not to the nuts and there is a ton of action. They just can't stand to do it. You'll get hammered a few times - but punish these players when they are drawing out on you with trash. If you have a made hand on the flop - like top pair or 2 pair - these flush and straight draw folks are looking at 4-1 and 5-1 dogs to complete their hand against you. Make them pay.

I'm sure that others will elaborate but basically, your game is a good one to be in. Do you have "Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players"? or any other Sklansky/Malmuth poker books? If not, I strongly suggest that you at least get the above mentioned one and read, re-read and then read it again.

[Pot-A]

My regular game has loose preflop conditions where 4-6 people regularly see the flop.

Pretty normal in my neck of the woods.

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

OK, so in this case you want to raise from early position with big cards but just call from late position. And make sure you check-raise the flop (if possible) when you hit so all those pesky chasers pay full price.

They ignore pot odds with a four-flush or open-ended straight draw and will call you down to the river.

Ahhhh, what a wonderfull game. All you really need to do is get out your calculator and figure out whether you should check/call, bet/raise, or fold. Make sure you bet, bet, bet, when you have a nice flop.

Oh, and never, ever, bluff. What would be the point? In all that chasing somebody's likely to have caught a pair or two, so they'll call you.

Also, they tend to be callers unless they have a made hand. And they also love to sandbag when they do have it. It is very tough to put most of them on a hand.

What you have to figure out here is whether or not they fold on the river when they don't make a hand. The more likely it is they'll call your value bet on the river with a weak hand, the more you should bet for value. If they tend to fold on the river when they don't have anything, you need to have a stronger hand than normal to bet the river.

I don't worry too much about sandbaggers. When I used to play the small games I noticed most people do it too often, so they give you a chance to redraw cheaply.

As far as putting people on a hand... well, that's common in the lower limits. Not just because they slow-play too much, but also because they often bet or raise when it's obvious somebody else has a better hand. And they tend to bluff too much. I've played in games where I pretty much ignored everyone else's action and made "this is a good hand so I'll call" decisions.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
Hmm... a still a little confused. Raising with painted, suited cards in LP makes it more expensive for me to see the flop with what I think is a drawing hand. So doesn't that ruin my implied odds?

I can see the limping with the unsuited painted cards though, *if* I can't raise anyone out. But then, should I play them at all in LP with many callers?

Guess what I'm trying to figure out is, "How many callers is ideal for the unsuited vrs. the suited variants?"

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Suppose for a minute the game was flat betting, with no doubling of the limit on the end. What would you reccomend for suited and unsuited paint? Just curious. I have to play in Colorado mostly these days.

[tewall]

Very nice post. A couple of comments.

The comment is that one reason not to raise is to keep the pot size small to maximize the mistakes chasers make on the flop and onwards. One the other hand, it makes sense to get more money in when you have the best of it. So you're sacrificing in making a small mistake early to capitalize on larger mistakes later.

Your point about raising with a hand like JTs late is well taken. You could also raise in MP and most like get many callers, especially if there's been several limpers in before you, but the hand will be more difficult to play than in late position. The drawing hands become more playable in late position not just because you have a better idea of how many opponents will be playing but because they are easier to play.

Regarding the flush you write (paraphrasing) " a lot of these people will never lay down a 4 flush, even if it's not to the nuts and there's a lot of action." It's hard to see laying down a 4 flush, unless the board is paired. The fact that it's not to the nuts doesn't matter. A flush losing to another flush is too rare to worry about and the action can be coming from many types of hands other than higher flush draws.

[sucka]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
it makes sense to get more money in when you have the best of it. So you're sacrificing in making a small mistake early to capitalize on larger mistakes later

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I know that I am going to outplay most of my opponents post-flop and thus, this is usually an easy decision for me to make (to raise here). I know what hands I'm trying to hit and I'm not going to chase a born loser just because the pot got big - by my own doing.

Sure, a big pot pre-flop minimizes the number of mistakes that the other (bad) players will make - however, while their mistake may not be mathematically incorrect it's still incorrect and the investment here, IMHO, outweighs the return as most of these players will call regardless of the pot size. So, might as well raise it up! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
A flush losing to another flush is too rare to worry about and the action can be coming from many types of hands other than higher flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

True...true... Just making a point. I tried to remember the last time I laid an open ender or 4 flush down on the flop and can't seem to remember. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

Tis' true that flush over flush occurs so rarely that you cant scare yourself out of it - but it's always funny to me how many players will call 3 bets with a baby flush. It normally doesn't take long, btw, to figure out who the "But they were sooted!!" players are. When the 3 to a flush comes - get ready...

[SoBeDude]

Hi Pot-A and thanks for your great response. Let me ask a few questions though:

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

OK, so in this case you want to raise from early position with big cards but just call from late position. And make sure you check-raise the flop (if possible) when you hit so all those pesky chasers pay full price.

Why would I not want to raise from late to get maximum value from my big cards? If I raise and get 5 callers I'm getting 5:1 on my preflop money if I hit a hand.

I find I make no money with my big hands when I raise and get one caller, on the flop I bet and they fold or call one bet then fold the turn. but if they stay in they'll just call so its still not a big pot but I lose a fair number of those. so I lose multiple bets when I raise pre-flop from early and lose, but only win a few, maybe 2-3 bets when I win.

Ahhhh, what a wonderfull game. All you really need to do is get out your calculator and figure out whether you should check/call, bet/raise, or fold. Make sure you bet, bet, bet, when you have a nice flop.

I'd love to see the rules for my calculator telling when to bet/call/raise/etc. please tell me what to read. I've read HEPFAP and its not that cut and dry.

Good point on the river card. I had to really think it through but it makes sense. They won't call if they missed a draw, but will call with hands even if marginal.

One thing I need to learn to do is lay down a good hand when I get check-raised on the turn-river. I'm beat 90% of the time that happens. the other 10% I just have a better hand, its never a bluff on their part.

Thanks again for your input!

-Scott

[sucka]

You can raise from late position with your big cards - and in fact, I encourage you to do so in many cases. LP raises in an already multi-way pot are simply to get a big fat pot for you. You most likely have the best of it, so get some money in there and see how things go. I think what he was trying to say is that with many limpers in already a LP raise from you will simply tie the 'chasers' to the pot. This isn't such a horrible thing - especially if you spike a hand. However, it's much more difficult to check-raise, or semi-bluff anyone out of the pot if you 'sort of' hit and your overall chances at the pot decrease in these types of situations.

For example:

You get 5 or 6 limpers behind you and you are in LP with KQo. Raising here isn't going to get anyone to fold as they are already in for 1 bet and I guarantee everyone will call one more. You probably have the best hand - but could be up against a pocket pair or two and perhaps an Ax. Not raising here allows you to trap players if you flop a a great draw or a monster hand like top 2 pair for additional bets as you don't give your hand away by raising pre-flop. The flop may also give you the opportunity to semi-bluff a hand that makes you a 3 flush with 2 overcards for example. In an unraised multi-way pot in LP you might be able to raise a MP or LP bettor and thin the field out a little and get it heads up or even win the pot right there. In short, in this smaller pot you make it more incorrect for players to cold-call your 2 bets than if it you had doubled the pot size preflop with a raise.

If you had raised pre-flop you are going to have a much more difficult time doing anything other than making a winning hand to take the pot. Anyone with any type of draw from bottom pair with an overcard to 3 to a big flush with overcards, etc... is going to stay in to draw against you as the pot has become to big for them to fold.

Of course, you'll always have the players who won't fold regardless of the size of the pot - against them you simply have to show down the best hand (or at least a better hand then what they have) to take the pot.

So, basically whether or not you choose to raise it up from LP is entirely up to you. There are arguments for both options and both are valid. In fact, in HEPFAP there is a section on playing in loose games that describes this exact dilemma.

[bernie]

i raise quite a bit in LP with suited hands...

think of it this way....what hands, given the situation and your in LP are you going to raise with? how narrow is your range?

there is a deception factor also that you can add into the equation.....along with buying the button which is also another good factor to consider...

if more than say, 2 limpers...thats 3+ in front, im generally not raising off suiteds. because you can figure at least another caller behind you...making it a very possible 5 way pot. but id be much more inclined to raise the suiteds....suiteds are my option hands usually....

cya

b

[Ed Miller]

Raising with painted, suited cards in LP makes it more expensive for me to see the flop with what I think is a drawing hand. So doesn't that ruin my implied odds?

Ok, AA... at this point I don't really understand where you are coming from. I'm talking about raising with a hand like AJs and just limping with a hand like AJo. I hope it's clear that AJs is strictly a better hand than AJo... AJs is not a "drawing hand" any more than AJo. It just has an extra way to win. That extra way to win is worth a lot... and turns a moderate holding into a very strong holding. Hands like 76s and 22 rely on implied odds to be profitable. Hands like AJs rule the Holdem universe and are worth lots of money.

I can see the limping with the unsuited painted cards though, *if* I can't raise anyone out. But then, should I play them at all in LP with many callers?

If you are playing in a game where your opponents have low starting hand requirements, then your KJo hand will be significantly better than what your opponents start with and is definitely worth a play in late position for one bet. On the other hand, in a game where your opponents have high starting hand requirements (on the order of your own) and there are four limpers to you, then KJo may no longer be profitable... it may easily be dominated by a hand like AJo or KQo... and even if it isn't dominated, it simply isn't getting the preflop equity in this game that it was in the looser game. Even in this scenario, though, the suited versions of these hands are still big hands, and you should raise with them.

In a flat betting structure, big cards... suited and offsuit... go up in value because the implied odds hands (medium suited connectors and small pairs) can no longer extract as much from you when they hit on the end.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
Hope you aren't insulted. The openeing sentance sounded a little peaved. I wasn't on the attack. I'm an HE dummy.

When I say AJs is a drawing hand, I mean to say you are primarily trying to hit the straight or flush, true? But with AJo the primary expectation is to hit a large pair. Other posters have characterized it that way. So I've seen folks say "Raise AJo for protection" but "limp with AJs to have lots of callers".

So when you say to raise with AJs, I'm thinking it costs me more to see the flop. Something I'm guessing I don't want with a flush or straight draw. I was thinking I want to see the flop a cheaply as possible if I were to look at these two hands as others have suggested.

I believe you are telling me that AJs and the like are large enough not to need implied odds?

Which brings me to a question. All the no-foldem simulations out there show that AA wins 3 out of 10 against a full table and about 80% of the time heads up.

Why would I want to raise with AA ever then? 30% of 10 callers is 3... 80% of 1 caller is .80. Seems the long term best EV is to simple call to the end. I know that goes against every word ever written. But it seems mathematically correct. Any idea why the discrepancy?

Getting back to the AJs example then, why would I want to raise folks out? Or is it that I really want them to call?

Thanks for the tips on the Flat Bet game. I learned as a stud player in Vegas. So my whole prism on the game is Mirage/Bellagio/MGM Grand etc. Stud games. 1/20 and below. I'm pursuing HE for the sake of game selection. Where I'm stuck now (Colorado) there's maybe 2 games of 1-5 stud going at any time. And even in Vegas there were *always* more HE games going. So anyway, the few times I've gone up to Blackhawk and played HE I don't do so well. Have to fix that, or not play. After all the Kelly Criteria rule is, "If you don't have an edge, don't play!".

:-)

Anyway, to summarize, I think you're telling me that the middle suited connectors and small pairs are the "implied odds" hands. Where as the painted-suited hands don't rely on implied odds.

Just want to give what you've written the same effort that went into writing it.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. No argument that AJs is the better of the two.

By the way, why wouldn't a hand like AJs actually "like" implied odds?

Seems to be a lot more grey areas to consider in HE than Stud!

[Ed Miller]

I'm not insulted at all... I just didn't understand your thought process... that's why I said that I didn't know where you were coming from. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

When I say AJs is a drawing hand, I mean to say you are primarily trying to hit the straight or flush, true? But with AJo the primary expectation is to hit a large pair.

Ok.. you have to stop thinking about "primary expectations" because I think it gets you into trouble. AJs has all the power of AJo... and then some... it can make a flush as well. Flopping top pair with AJs is just as strong as flopping top pair with AJo. AJs just gives you an extra way to win. That extra way to win is the difference between a hand that is playable for profit (AJo) and a big hand that is worth a lot of money (AJs). You raise with AJs because it is such a good hand that you want to get more of your opponent's money into the pot. This is the same reason you raise with AA. It is such a good hand that you want to get as much money into the pot as possible. With either of these hands, you'd like lots of people to be calling your raises.

The reasons people sometimes suggest to limp-reraise with big suited Aces from early position is that often early position raises do thin the field. You would rather be playing AJs against six opponents with worse hands than yours than against two or three. The point of limping is to deceive your opponents and entice them in with their marginal hands. If you don't fully understand the concept... then this is my suggestion to you... just open-raise with these hands. Chances are, people will be playing too loosely in your game, and they will go ahead and call your raise anyway. Furthermore, in Colorado, they will be probably making an even bigger mistake because they will be calling raises sometimes with "implied odds" hands that have gone down in value due to the structure.

As for why AJs wouldn't "like" implied odds... well, in some ways it does. The flush-making component of it does like implied odds... but the big pair component doesn't. And in the end, the value of this hand is so large that you just want others to be paying to play against a quality hand like yours. Let me compare it to a stud hand (though I have very little stud experience). Say your hand is (A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif )Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . This is a big hand... a huge hand if your opponents' door cards are all lower than a Q and hearts are very live. In some ways it is an "implied odds" hand... but you'd still want to play it aggressively because you have so many ways to win. If you raise and reraise with it on 3rd street, your opponents that call will likely be doing so as underdogs. Thus, any additional raises you put in make you money.

[tewall]

It sounds like you're disagreeing with S&amp;M's pot manipulation recommendation. It's an interesting question as to whether calling or raising is better. I wonder if anyone's done sims on it. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

Although flush over flush doesn't happen often, it's easy to remember when it does. If remember going crazy with a King high flush that hit. You can guess what happend. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[Pot-A]

Why would I not want to raise from late to get maximum value from my big cards? If I raise and get 5 callers I'm getting 5:1 on my preflop money if I hit a hand.

sucka's comment is on the mark. Raise from late position if you don't have a bunch of limpers who will certainly call you. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. If you have limpers, just call.

It is true you're getting 5:1 with five callers. However, consider this: How often to you hit the flop? Lets say you had AQo, and the flop was something like Ts 9s 2c. Heads up this might be a betting or calling situation, since one opponent is likely to have whiffed as well, but against five people your odds of winning this pot are small. You're only loosing half as much if you just chuck it on the flop, even though you have some outs.

This is the key: The point of the raise pre-flop for a hand like AQo isn't to get more money from the people who call, it is to increase the chance you will win the pot by reducing the number of callers. You need to have a really strong hand like AA to start thinking about getting good odds on your pre-flop money.

I find I make no money with my big hands when I raise and get one caller, on the flop I bet and they fold or call one bet then fold the turn. but if they stay in they'll just call so its still not a big pot but I lose a fair number of those. so I lose multiple bets when I raise pre-flop from early and lose, but only win a few, maybe 2-3 bets when I win.

If you raise and you only get one caller, it's not a loose game after all. Start raising with a wider range of hands.

I'd love to see the rules for my calculator telling when to bet/call/raise/etc. please tell me what to read. I've read HEPFAP and its not that cut and dry.

No? Read it again, especially the section on pot odds. If your opponents are just going to call to the end with draws you want to bet your made hands. Whether you call or even bet with a draw is dictated by the size of the pot. If you get raised you have to start thinking about what the raiser could have. If people are raising a lot with marginal hands, it's not a passive game.

Good point on the river card. I had to really think it through but it makes sense. They won't call if they missed a draw, but will call with hands even if marginal.

If they call with marginal hands you're going to have to make some value bets. You'll get raised every once in awhile, but it'll still end up being more profitable if you consider your opponents carefully.

One thing I need to learn to do is lay down a good hand when I get check-raised on the turn-river. I'm beat 90% of the time that happens. the other 10% I just have a better hand, its never a bluff on their part.

Be very carefull adopting this strategy. In general, these type of games generate very large pots relative to the size of the bet, so it is still correct to call if you have outs or they might be bluffing.

So take into account how strong your hand is and how many other players are still in before you decide to fold. Most hands that were worth a bet are worth a call in this situation. Also, if you start folding every time they raise, even the weakest players will start to become tricky.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
The AA analogy rings home. Elsewhere I asked, "Since AA wins 3 out of 7 against 10 players vrs. 80% of the time against 1, why would I ever want to raise people out?"

This morning while brushing my teeth (literally!) it came to me. I might be better off against 5 callers for a double bet than 10 callers limping in. My probability of winning goes up... and I got the same amount of money in the pot as 10 callers... but only have 5 drawers to deal with.

I suspect there's an optimal number of opponents in said situations. Guess I should get a monte carlo simulator and a spread sheet out like I used to do with stud. (Lost my HE simulator, the old Workware PokerLanguage jobby, in a disk crash.)

By the way, I have no question in my mind that AJs is better than AJo, to be sure. What I thought my objectives for each had are, is where the confusion came from.

Sounds like AJs could be played either way, so the question becomes, "What is the most profitable way?"

I suspect that there's some sort of yield curve at work, just like the AA example. Again, leading me to the idea of "Most profitable number of callers". (Taking the AA example a little further, Limp-Reraise makes a lot of sense. After all, if I could make it 3 bets plus trapped money to one caller, I'd might get the same EV as the 10 caller scenario... but with that juicy 80% winning probability... can you say, "Variance Reduction". :-) )

However, no one has published that data, far as I know.

Seems that idea, along with the idea of having a table of "hand vrs. hand" odds falls on deaf ears in this forum, yet both sets of data seem important to know to me.

Thanks for taking the effort in the responses.

Sincerely,
AA

[Flashy]

I play a lot of $4/8 in LA. I have observed what seems like a loose passsive game will all of a sudden change to agressive after the first raise with mulitple raises comming from previous limpers. There ends up being 5-6 players in a 3-4 bet pot preflop. Some LA players just love the action and the excitement of a big pot and look to get capped pots going. Particularlly with any suited connectors.

Once the pot is capped, you can count on a 3 player showdown on the river. I can't recall any 3-4 bet preflop pots taken down without a showdown.

Conversely, I find that I can take a pot with a semi or outright bluff if it is unraised preflop. This occurs with a flop that is either very strong or very weak. Once a lot of folds occur, the herd instincts seem to kick in and everyone folds out to the bettor. I know people call these games nofoldem, but I seem able to steal a few pots on the during a session.

I know limping with a good hand preflop in late position is a mistake. But I wonder if you pickup some equity by the ability to now take down a pot. I am not talking about limping with a premium hand, but one like a pair of 10s in late position. For it to hold up with 5-6 people calling to the river, 9 times out of ten you will need to spike a ten. So I don't think you want to risk having to 3-4 bet it to see the flop. In an unraise pot where players will fold, it becomes a great hand to bet depending on the flop.

Opinions, even flames welcomed.

[DeliciousDi]

Playing online (Paradise and Party) 3/6 &amp; 5/10, it's back to the basics for me (Bet when you got them, fold when you don't and stay out of the traps) because there are now too many people there playing good poker. Playing fairly liberal starting hands for positions, I make some money as long as I stay out of raising wars and show some respect for kickers - "big pair with big kicker is the meat and potatoes of Hold'em" - "paying respect is cheaper than paying money" - and for me, JTs is ok MP if it improves to at least pair of Jacks with no overcard on the Flop and I can get there with a single bet. If I get those 2 suited cards to go with my JTs I'm willing to limp on in (more so if there is a Jack on the board, then will raise) but that 3% doesn't drive me &lt;rambling&gt; and it is, after all, dependent on the game opponents are playing. After getting burned a few times I've identifed some opponents as just hanging out in 5/10 waiting for a certain high-stakes game to let them in and when they get into the 5/10 game, I get out.
Back in the 'good ole days' I made a living wage counting cards (Hi/Low) in the Las Vegas Blackjack games and I was there when the wizards of counting got caught up in the .003% issues. It seems to me that something similar is happening in poker. Precision poker play cost me $900 out of $2100 winnings and now KISS is once again my motto. But what do I know? I'm just a beginner at poker.