A high content post

[adanthar]

Bodog 10K Guaranteed final table. We are playing 6 handed and have been for some time. Stack sizes range from 14K to 44K with the blinds at 1/2. The payouts are 3K/2K/1200/800/650/500 and if I get below third I'll be pissed.

Two folds and the 44K stack, who's been a little aggressive, raises to 6500 from the cutoff. The guy behind him with 21K, who is a little weak/tight but not horrible, cold calls. I have tens in the big blind with 34K, hear the alarm go off and just call. (Who pushes here?) 3 to the flop for ~20,000.

The flop is JJ3, rainbow. I check. The big stack thinks and bets 4,860, leaving himself exactly 33,000. The short stack behind him thinks for a very long time and calls off 1/3 of what he has left.

I think for enough time to run down and push. Comments?

[Myst]

Good push, because you need this pot and they will only call you with a Jack. Overpairs are gonna fold in this spot. Also, weak/tightie doesnt seem to have a jack because of his "online tell"

[freemoney]

I really like this hand, real interesting. I think pushing preflop has some merit, big stack isnt going to call wihtout a very big hand i think he folds AK some % of time, weak/tight pushes with the 4 overpairs to you i would think, big stack likes his chip stack too much to make a call here, theres great overlay from the pot and if you do get called and win you have a really ginormous stack, all in all i push pre.

[johnnybeef]

if you will be pissed about placing lower than third, then what the hell are you doing trying to make a move at a multiway pot in which you have no idea where you stand? if you are playing for first, i love it as the big stacks bet looks like he is willing to get away from his hand, and the weak tightey is just doing what comes naturally (furthermore if he really is that weak tight he wont call when it comes around to him and he is getting ~4:1). but considering your goals for this tournament it is just too risky for me.

edit: i push preflop btw.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
if you will be pissed about placing lower than third,

[/ QUOTE ] I'm playing for first, figure of speech anyone? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
Good push, because you need this pot and they will only call you with a Jack. Overpairs are gonna fold in this spot. Also, weak/tightie doesnt seem to have a jack because of his "online tell"

[/ QUOTE ]

In a 10K guarenteed, AA, KK and QQ are very capable of calling here. I like your line it shows your playing to win this thing.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you will be pissed about placing lower than third,

[/ QUOTE ] I'm playing for first, figure of speech anyone? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

my type of play then...high risk, high reward.

[wuwei]

Lately, I've messed up multiple times when my warning bells go off preflop. I end up seeing the flop and it's a nice flop for my hand, I sort of forget about the warning and get wtfpwned. Not sure if that's relevant here or not, it's just something I've done too much lately.

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is JJ3, rainbow. I check. The big stack thinks and bets 4,860, leaving himself exactly 33,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen you note this betting behavior multiple times before. What exactly is your thought/read here? That he is more concerned with how his stack will look once this bet is put in than he is about the hand?

[ QUOTE ]
The short stack behind him thinks for a very long time and calls off 1/3 of what he has left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feels enough like AK that you are less worried about a monster?

[ QUOTE ]
I think for enough time to run down and push. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense to me. I'm not too worried about the big stack having us beat here, and I'm less worried about the weak tightie than I was before - and we have him covered. Let's push.

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you note this betting behavior multiple times before. What exactly is your thought/read here? That he is more concerned with how his stack will look once this bet is put in than he is about the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[Unarmed]

Ugh. I think I would fold, but I'd hate doing it.
Shorty has to know he's playing for his entire stack here so his range is pretty limited IMO. Any pair he has that you have beat has to raise that flop to shut out big stack's overcards.

I can't see him having anything but AA/KK/AK. He's not dumping AA/KK after his master plan of limping PF "worked". If he has AK I think he folds the flop a good % of the time given your read, and I don't think AK calls off 1/3 of his stack PF anyway.

Given all that and the fact that big stack may actually have a hand (this flop is bone dry so there's nothing terribly wrong with the severe underbet) I would fold.

Yuck. I even hated typing that...

[arod15]

Why no push PF? I would have pushed then and with that flop again i would have pushed. ALthough i think PF it would have been tough to call. WHat happened

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you note this betting behavior multiple times before. What exactly is your thought/read here? That he is more concerned with how his stack will look once this bet is put in than he is about the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF... is that poker content????

[kamrann]

This is a tough spot for sure. I agree it's a big pot and would be very nice to take down, but busting out to the big stack is a lot more negative than taking the pot down is positive, if that makes any sense. If you fold you have a healthy stack still anyway, so I wouldn't say you really need the pot. And doubling is unlikely, since you're going to have a real job getting called by a worse hand check-raising in this spot.

I agree with the other posters concerns regarding forgetting about preflop warning bells. You're not really leaving yourself any outs playing it this way, which generally isn't a good plan when you're in a pot with the chip leader. By checking on the flop I think you miss out on the opportunity to pick up any more real info about your opponents, whilst by betting out you get a bit more. Having said all that, if you played the flop as you did because you planned to check-raise allin to represent the J, knowing you were taking a big risk in order to increase your chances of first place, then fair enough.

[utmt40]

Good push.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you note this betting behavior multiple times before. What exactly is your thought/read here? That he is more concerned with how his stack will look once this bet is put in than he is about the hand?

[ QUOTE ]
The short stack behind him thinks for a very long time and calls off 1/3 of what he has left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feels enough like AK that you are less worried about a monster?

[ QUOTE ]
I think for enough time to run down and push. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense to me. I'm not too worried about the big stack having us beat here, and I'm less worried about the weak tightie than I was before - and we have him covered. Let's push.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post pretty much nailed it. I wanted to see what would happen on the flop, realized that the raiser had nothing and was mainly worried about the other guy but felt I needed to take a chance.

The raiser turbomucked. The other guy thought for a long time and folded as well. I'm still not sure what he had but I believe there's a good chance he threw away a winner.

I think betting this flop out is very very bad, BTW, because I can't call a raise and still have no info on their hands when they do.

[wuwei]

Nice hand.

And how about the final results? You take down the whole thing?

[adanthar]

Lost a bunch of all ins at the end and finished second (but I can't complain, I sucked out a few times myself.)

My last six final tables are 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, though...not bad.

[11t]

Blech, I did something like this a little while ago and the aggressive player folded and the weak-tigt player flipped over AA.

I don't think its awful but I'm tryiing to learn to listen to those alarm bells in my head. Since hind sight is 20/20 the weak-tight short stack calling the aggressive players raise is quite intimidating so I think if you are gonna get involved pushing preflop or folding is probably your best line.

[11t]

You really think the short stack is gonna fold an overpair here?